Milosevic: West provoked war in Balkans

Kunikuni - the Bosnian passport is proven, bin Laden's presence in Izetbegovic' office is not.

Both you and MOU appear to be essentially agreed in your positions on Moslem enclaves, and these positions are amply confirmed by all known facts.

I don't agree with attempts to shove responsibility towards Germany, nor do I consider Lord Carrington a reliable judge: his track record (with which I'm eminently familiar) is one of consistent and abysmal failure in both domestic (British) and international affairs.

Ultimately though this latest Balkan war is only a pale preview of what will happen in much of Europe in the unlikely event that an Islamic republic - and there's no doubt Izetbecovic was trying to establish one in Sarajevo - is ever close to being admitted in the EU.

This unfortunately isn't clear yet to many of our politicians who support Turkey's application, not realizing that any decision will have to be agreed by existing EU members as well as potential members like Russia and Ukraine. If another war must be fought to keep Islam out of Europe, then another war will be fought, much greater than the one which broke up Yugoslavia. In that sense Madeleine Albright's nonsensical babble about a "multicultural, multiethnic" Bosnia and Kosovo must bear more blame for casualties on the ground than any decision taken by Germany.

Freedom of religion is one thing, inclusion of Islamic states in the EU another. That doesn't mean Albania, btw, whose land undeniably lies in Europe (unlike Turkey's) and which (again unlike Turkey) really is a secular state.

To Hoft..
Here is some further references for you..
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
"Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War"
Documents Misguided Intervention In The Balkans

"Could the violent break up of Yugoslavia have been avoided? What role did Western intervention play in the tragedy that consumed the multi-ethnic country? "Yugoslavia ? The Avoidable War," a two hour and forty-five minute film, addresses these questions in a well-documented, powerful indictment of misguided intervention in the region.

The documentary which took four years to produce, and which was updated following NATO intervention in Kosovo, investigates how serious errors and misjudgments made by Western powers ? particularly Germany and the United States -- helped spark the violent break up of the former Yugoslavia in 1991 and continue to destabilize the region in the new millennium. Produced by Frontier Theatre and Film Inc., "Yugoslavia the Avoidable War" documents the role of Western intelligence agencies in providing aid to armed separatists and reveals how Western governments supported different sides in an ethnic conflict while portraying themselves as peacemakers. Most compelling are the candid statements of the decision-makers themselves, including former EC Mediator Lord Peter Carrington, former US Secretaries of State James Baker and Lawrence Eagleburger, as well as Germany's former foreign minister, Hans Dietrich Genscher.

"What the international community -- the Europeans, the Americans the UN -- did, made it sure there was going to be conflict," states Lord Peter Carrington, the EC mediator, who along with UN envoy Cyrus Vance warned against diplomatic recognition of separatists states such as Croatia and Bosnia, before a political settlement could be achieved. "US intelligence agencies were unanimous in saying that if we recognize Bosnia it will blow up," says former State Department official George Kenney. Yet, according to former acting US Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger, domestic political considerations -- the 1992 election campaign between William Clinton and George Bush ? led to the tragic decision to recognize Bosnia without a political settlement between the Muslims, Serbs and Croats. The film makes a powerful argument that the US drew the wrong lesson of from the Bosnian conflict to justify intervention in the civil war that simmered in Kosovo. "

"Revealing interviews with EC Mediator Lord Peter Carrington, UN Commanders Lew MacKenzie and Sir Michael Rose, former Newsweek Military Correspondent Col David Hackworth, Former German Foreign Minister Hans Dietrich Genscher, State Department official George Kenney, author Susan Woodward, former Nuremburg prosecutor Walter Rockler, Canadian diplomat James Bissett, author Scott Taylor and many other participants and observers.

Winner "Best Social Documentary" --New York International Independent Film and Video Festival"
http://www.balkanpeace.org/temp/tmp09.html

Albanias land may lie in Europe but it does not include Kosovo parts of greece and macedonia. You also appear unaware of the wahhabe influence there now from Saudi..

Believe me Kunikuni I'm very familiar with Albania's territory and dispersed populations, as well as with the presence of the Wahhabis, the Iranian mullahs, elements from Turkey and other Moslem territories including Chechnya, and their respective sources of financing.

And as I said I know Carrington's report very well.

Let's avoid repetition if possible.

bin Laden's presence..
<<Kunikuni - the Bosnian passport is proven, bin Laden's presence in Izetbegovic' office is not. >>
Bin laden..

"October 2, 2003

BELGRADE - Gregory Copley, the director of the International Strategic Studies Institute in Washington, claimed in an interview with SRNA that he has evidence of ties between Alija Izetbegovic and al-Qaida, as well as that a group of terrorists, trained in camps in the north of Albania, was transferred to Kosovo and Metohija a few months ago, and that one of the goals is to make Raska a state within a state.

He explained that the magazine "Defense & Foreign Affairs" and the Global Information System, under the auspices of the International Strategic Studies Institute, are just in the process of publishing documentation pointing out the ties between radical Islamists in key positions in the Bosnia-Herzegovina government with known or suspected Islamists with terrorist connections.

"There is evidence of the involvement of Izetbegovic and connections with the Islamic network al-Qaida. Izetbegovic personally met with Osama bin Laden several times, and personally intervened to ensure that bin Laden and all those who followed him receive Bosnia-Herzegovina passports," claims Copley, adding : " More..

CHRONICLES INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENT

Osama bin Laden: The Balkan Connection
by Srdja Trifkovic
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/December2001/1201CIA.htm

The Independent, 29 July 1999 [UK NEWS]
Bin Laden casts a shadow over Sarajevo summit
By Colin Soloway in Sarajevo

http://www.balkanpeace.org/wtb/wtb10.html

Please read again what was said before responding, Kunikuni. Thanks.

I never said that ANY serbian source is obviusly wrong, I said that emperor-clothes (which is actually not serbian source, at least not strictly serbian) is bizzare and funny "conspiracy is all around" website.

and I also think (I might be wrong but I doubt) that in debate "pro or contra Serbs" in Balkan wars, Serbian sources (very known and official ones) that are holding arguments for "contra" side are stronger then anything (except you found croatian/bosnian sources that are holding "pro" Serbs side) .

Izetbegovic was just moslem version of Milosevic (you may add Tudjman as well) I agree. But Bosnian Moslems, ordinary people, mostly are not mujaheedens, and there are no beheadings in Bosnia.

And as for Bin Laden, I don't want to open a new front, but I am pretty sure that he is better friend with Bush then he was with Izetbegovic (outside of that yours and mine opinion about Bin Laden and radical islamists is completely same).

Finally, as for casualties in Operation "Storm", once again - strongest SERBIAN organization in that subject, "Veritas" (that most of Croats consider complete liars, and that was actually really proven to lie at least in some cases) mentiones 1.527 casualties. So, of course you can find numerous other numbers if you search it through google - you can find serbian fascists (still dreaming about Great Serbia) that will probably claim that 50,000 are killed and you can also find croatian idiots that claim that there are about 7 or 8 people Serbs killed - just as well as you can very easily find that Holocaust never existed or that Hitler killed tens of millions of Jews.

Also, once again, you can find links about just about everything on Internet. So, I think the main fact is that absolute PEAK of the war in Croatia was BEFORE German recognition of Croatia, so I actually really don't care what any politician or historician says.

Repitition
<<Believe me Kunikuni I'm very familiar with Albania's territory and dispersed populations, as well as with the presence of the Wahhabis, the Iranian mullahs, elements from Turkey and other Moslem territories including Chechnya, and their respective sources of financing.

And as I said I know Carrington's report very well.

Let's avoid repetition if possible. >>

Indeed so. I have lost interest in debate now.
I especially abhor those who candidly state they 'know' without posting one reference in support of their argument in an attempt to stifle debate.

Lets have no more repetition indeed, I agree, and I have other forums which are more stimulating and in which i am not wasting my time. Other readers may not be so knowledgable as yourself. Since you claim to know it all and are not open to learning more you can continue being seen to be knowledgable on your own.
Have a nice day.

Your loss.

oh, btw, on serbian "druze" means "friend", but in croatian word is "prijatelj", while reference "druze" was used only between members of Communistic Party, so unless you are trying to start EX-Yugoslavian Communistic party, better change it next time

DRUGE
Dear 'friend'.

Read my previousd post.

The plot thickens - today the US has agreed to use the name "Republic of Macedonia" for the FYROM. The Greeks protest strenuously. The Albanian minority in FYROM protests also but for other reasons, oppression by Bulgarian majority.

All in all Milocevic doesn't seem very far wrong when he claims foreign parties were involved in the Yugoslav wars - we seem to have covered more than 20 such parties so far in this thread.

You probably meant MACEDONIAN majority There are no Bulgarians in Macedonia (I mean, maybe there are few), just that Bulgarians also (although much more calmly and in much lesser numbers then Greeks) claim that Macedonia is actually theirs.

and, Macedonians are, of course, nation for themselves

LOL Come and tell that to the millions of Greeks in the province of Macedonia whose family tree goes back to ancient times.

Remind me what language Alexander The Great spoke and what language FYROM citizens speak....

History and presence are not that simple Aris. Macedonians (in ex yugoslavian republic of Macedonia) call themselves Macedonians for centuries.
Also, it's a small and very weak country, so I think that Greece behaviour in this case is not very wise, quite contrary.
It is really ridicoulous to think that Macedonia can pose any kind of threat to Greece, and as for the territory it's obviusly not Greek territory for centuries.
So....I'm not sure that Greek province of Macedonia has a lot to do with this subject. They are not claiming your territory, they are not threatening in any way, I really don't see any reason why this country shouldn't be called Macedonia.

Perhaps you do not understand the simple fact that by calling itself "Macedonia" the FYROM can then lay claim to Macedonia's history (something they already try to do) and territory some time in the future, both which have always been Greek. And to say that it poses no threat to Greece is besides the point. Greece's borders have shrunk progressively through the centuries. Albania took a chunk of north-western Greece, Yugoslavia took a chunk of northern Greece and Turkey took a chunk of eastern Greece. I suppose we should let neighbouring countries in the Balkans warp and stake claim to our history and territory. Ten, one hundred years down the road, who knows what the mess in the Balkans will be like, and if we let FYROM legitimize its claims to our heritage and names of provinces now, FYROM would simply love to add the province of Macedonia to its territory, jsut like Albania wants to expand its border and absorb what's left of the province of Ipeiros.

You did not answer me what language Alexander The Great spoke, though. The reason I am asking is because most FYROM citizens are trying to lay claim to him as well. In fact, when I lived in Toronto, the Slavs from FYROM would go and lay a wreath on his statue in the Danforth, only to provoke Greeks and to try to claim that part of history as theirs.

So, what language did ATG speak?

Go look at a map circa early 20th century and get back to me about how the territory was not Greek territory for centuries.

ALexander the Great spoke Greek I suppose, never thought about it too much.

I think that much more important question is what language are citizens of ex yugoslavian republic Macedonia speaking?

and you can find idiots and bigots everywhere, while I never heard any Macedonian official claiming any part of Greek territory

MOU - Stalin created the territory subsequently known as the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia pursuant to the Yalta Accords. Bulgaria had supported the Axis powers and was dismembered in 1945 with this particular bit of land going to Yugoslavia - Tito being at the time a close Stalin friend and fellow Communist.

A referendum was held in that territory in 1946 under Stalin's direct supervision, and the inhabitants, ethnic Bulgarians as per their language then and now, "voted" to declare themselves "Macedonians" - failing which trains were standing by to drive them to Siberia.

The parties fought a civil war subsequently while they tried to absorb the Greek province of the same name, a treaty was signed in 1949, but the bloodshed didn't end completely until Stalin's death in 1953.

This is public information easily accessible on all history sites.

Aris, hello, do you speak ancient Greek by any chance? I don't know modern Greek but if you know ancient would appreciate your feedback on a translation thread

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29685&highlight=&sid=f77fd0e51178054978ea5ac043f97200

Thanks - and btw, Alexander the Great also spoke ancient Greek (duh!) and had learned the Iliad by heart, on advice of his teacher, Aristotle.