Milosevic: West provoked war in Balkans

Ethnical cleansing:

In Croatia (Bosnia is different story) only REAL ethnical cleansing was made by Serbs. Absolutely every single Croat from occupied territories was either killed or (I lack a word - made refugee). List of croatian villages and towns completely burned and destroyed is too long to be mentioned - and Serbia itself today has many trials against responsible for this genocide and atrocities.

Operation "Storm" however was not a ethnical cleansing. I am not saying that it was all okay, because it was not (and we can see quite clearly in Iraq that there is no country that is good and nice and human in war conflicts) and AFTER operation some crimes are committed.
However, very very important thing is that Croatian Army (unlike Yugoslav Army and serbian paramilitary troops in the beginning of the war) didn't made Serbs go. Vast majority of villages and towns that were occupied were completely empty when Croatian Army entered them. If some of your Serbian friends is from that territory (Krajina) and he is real friend, ask him when you are having a beer with him what really happened - have Croats came to his door and told him to leave or he will be killed or whatever? During Milosevic trial several wittnesses, Serbs, claimed even that Serbian Army ordered them to leave.
After all, my town was heavily bombed by Serbs for four years - population of my town is about 60,000 and there are more then 5,000 Serbs - not a single was killed, molested or anything during the war. It was quite easy to "ethnically cleanse" them in the middle of the war, under the constant shelling and bombing, don't you think?

And also, nobody in Balkans made so much in area of making return of all refugees possible as Croatia - no, even Croatia probably haven't done enough (especially because of financial reasons, country is simply not powerfull enough to built all burned homes /that includes both croatian and serbian homes/), but we did more then all others together.

Now, what happened after operation is different story. But, people that know something about history also know what Russians did in Berlin, what Allies did in many other German cities - and that doesn't make Germans good, right? Nope, that just says that there is no clean war. But, someone is always responsible for the war, and for most of the people on this planet it's quite obvius that it would be no war without Serbs. It doesn't mean that all others were saints, because nobody is saint in the war (and this is not for approving anything, I think all war criminals should end up in jail, no matter if they are Serbs, Croats, Iraqis, Americans or Brits).

But, simply from where and how war was held it's quite obvius what were the real reasons and who was to blame. Once again - not a single bullet was shot from Croatia or Bosnia to a serbian territory. Also, numerous Serbs fought in Croatian and Bosnian Army, simply because they were protecting their towns, houses and families, and because they saw what was happening. I doubt that you can found any Croats in Serbian Army, and any Moslems as well (excluding possibly some from moslem area of Sandzak in Serbia).

And finally, apologies and admittance of guilt by serbian war leader in Croatia, as well as official apology of Montenegrian minister of external affairs, Mr. Vlahovic, (just few days ago) for part that Montenegrians took in agression on Croatia (his own words - I'm waiting for article to appear on english on b92.net to provide a link, but until then you can ask some of your friends to translate it to you from serbian language if you don't understant it yourself /b92 is serbian website by the way/) - all those things are saying more then anything else.

Pozdrav i tebi

if Mr. Vlahovic's apology doesn't appear this is good enough:



Link from Serbian website

and some more:

Montenegrian president apologize for Montenegrian participation in agression on croatian town of Dubrovnik

Link

Serbian vice-admiral admitting guilt for "murder, cruel treatment and attacks on civilians and destruction of civilian and historic buildings during shelling of the historic heart of Dubrovnik"

Link

About Ovcara massacre

Link

All links are from B92 website (serbian radio station with many international awards for free-journalism), and all news are either from B92 or SRNA (news agency of Bosnian Serbs). Simply, I think it's much more appropriate to give serbian links then croatian or international.

in answer to you MOU
"In 1964 Richard L. Felman, a retired US Air Force Major, (sadly now deceased) self-published a 46 page book 22 cm in size with illustrations in Tucson, Arizona, recounting the rescue of US airmen in Serbia during World War II." Felma apart from being an American airman was also Jewish. He also was an honorary Chetnik and campaigned for Mihailovich for the rest of his life.
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/038.shtml

Yes, Tudjman was an idiot, a fascist one.
"Found: Tudjman's Order To "Make Serbs Disappear From Croatia"
http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=3782

(Tudjman: "Thank goodness my wife is neither Serb nor jew"..from his book, 'Wastelands'.
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/6970/edition_id/131/format/html/displaystory.html

Croatia's Leader Denounced as Holocaust Revisionist
President Tudjman Refuses to Recant
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p19_Weber.html
Jasenovac..
http://www.jasenovac.org/index.asp

Source: The London Independent newspaper, 28 June 1997
HOW A SOVIET MOLE UNITED TITO AND CHURCHILL
http://www.serbianunity.net/culture/history/Draza_Mihailovich/independent.html

Chetniks, Mihailovich
THE MIHAILOVICH STORY: A RETELLING
http://www.serbianunity.net/culture/history/Draza_Mihailovich/draza_martin.html

re ethnic cleansing..
"The Invasion of Serbian Krajina
by Greg Elich
[Mr. Elich is a freelance scholar who has written extensively about Yugoslavia.]

"In early August 1995, the Croatian invasion of Serbian Krajina precipitated the worst refugee crisis of the Yugoslav civil war. Within days, more than two hundred thousand Serbs, virtually the entire population of Krajina, fled their homes, and 14,000 Serbian civilians lost them lives. According to a UN official "Almost the only people remaining were the dead and the dying." The Clinton administration's support for the invasion was an important factor in creating this nightmare..." More at url..
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/elich/krajina.html

"In the summer 1995, Croatia carried out a large scale military operation called Oluja -- Storm -- the objective of which was to reclaim areas of Croatia held by rebel Serb forces. The operation officially lasted four days and effectively eliminated the wartime "Republic of Serbian Krajina".
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/o/op/operation_storm.html

America's Role in Operation Storm
AIM Zagreb, September 9, 2001
http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/200109/10925-002-trae-zag.htm

Re Thok in your reply to the guy from Holland
I have the vatican links if you are interested.
It wasn't cecession which was the problem, as username stated that was allowed under the constitution.
The problem was in hans Genscher of germany giving premature recognition prior to a Yu concensus, the vatican followed suit almost immediately. Germany was warned by the EU that the outcome would be war but it went ahead anyway.
http://guskova.ru/misc/balcan/I_Accuse/02

"Even before the armed secession of Croatia, still during the existence of the former Yugoslavia, Croatia received on 4th October 1990 a huge clandestine and interest-free loan of 2 billion US dollars, repayable in 10 years and one day..."

"... At the end of 1997 a shocking scandal appeared about the funds of the ustasha (about 150 million Swiss franks) concealed by Vatican at the end of war (1945). A part of it was allegedly later gradually distributed to various ustasha centres around the world. The "rat channels" must be remembered here with the help of which a part of the catholic clergy helped to bring into safety the most notorious ustasha and nazi criminals to the Latin America, Australia, Spain..." More at url..
http://guskova.ru/misc/balcan/I_Accuse/04

Kunikuni - addressing only one point in your extensive post, Hans-Dietrich Genscher resigned on May 18 1992 from the German government
http://www.genscher.de/11094.html
because of the accusation you make also, i.e. that he contributed to the violent breakup of Yugoslavia by supporting the secession of Croatia and Slovenia.

Really there was no choice, the old Austro-Hungarian empire's borders had included these 2 countries and there were historical obligations towards them.

Since this thread is about the Milocevic trial however and since the Serb-Croat claims are now largely settled, I wonder if either of you would comment on the situation south of that old Austro-Hungarian border, i.e. the lands previously taken over by the Ottoman Turks, and the possible future - if any - for the Islamic enclaves in that part of the Balkans. Thank you.

kunikuni - we can talk on normal level or we can't talk at all - by many things I think that you are not lunatic such as swolf was, but in that case, don't act like one please
First of all, I am absolutely sure that your intelligence is more then high enough to conclude difference between informations from website of internationally known and awarded serbian radio station and information from sites such as emperor-clothes that is exactly "Belgians are Evil Red Bunnies from Outer Space" kind of site.
Same goes for other sites, except brainyencyclopedia which is close to truth.

On that site you can see several important facts:
1. "Majority of Serbs from Krajina Region FLED during operation". That's exactly what they did. They fled, some because they were scared, some because they were forced to do so by their own troops (which was exactly part of Milosevic's scenario - he wanted them to put them to live in Kosovo to change national statistics there).
Croatia is not stopping their return by any means (excluding alleged war criminals or other kinds of criminals).

2. Brainyencyclopedia quotes number of serbian civilian casualties...this is extremely interesting, because - they are taking a number from serbian organization "Veritas". First important thing is that Veritas lost all credibility on international level, after dozens of people from their list of killed Serbs was found well and live (mostly in Serbia).

HOWEVER, even more important, Veritas, with its pretty lousy credibility (and that is proven by facts) mentiones 1.527 casualties. One of your funny links (emperor's clothes I think) mentiones 14,000!
So, please, spare me of such links, can you? Thanks. Hvala.

Also, keep in mind that I am mentioning that only in a light of "credibility" of such funny links, not saying that it's nice to kill 1.527 people (and it's also proven that that "official" number from serbian organization Veritas is wrong). So, real estimation is that about 1,000 SERBS lost lives during operation Storm. Not CIVILIANS, but Serbs in total, and majority of casualties are definitely soldiers in heavy military conflicts. Also, those are mostly villages and small towns where all population was armed during fights - so it's quite probably that decent percentage of killed "civilians" were actually also killed in fight and were armed.

And I never saw any credible report from credible source about killed children or women (except maybe during bombing which is still awful, but happens in every single war so it's not argument at all).

as for premature recognition, I already told you - stories about that are either from serbian friends (such as Russia, although Russia also voted for sanctions against Serbia year later, and they could use veto) or from those parts of West that probably deep inside feel responsibility for what happened in Vukovar, Skabrnja, Ovcara....or later in Bosnia in Sarajevo, Tuzla, Srebrenica....that's also probably why they had military action in Kosovo, when they had almost no rights unlike during agression on Croatia and Bosnia.

And, once more, German recognition came AFTER one of greatest atrocities (Vukovar) of war already happened, so on general levels we can only talk that maybe (I strongly disagree, but we can talk about it) that eventual "premature" recognition of Croatia made war in Bosnia more terrible. I don't see logic in it, but, yeah, we can discuss it.
As for Croatian war, it lasted for four years, and it was ugly for four years, but absolutely heaviest part and the biggest destruction of many croatian villages, towns and cities, was in period between August 1991 - January 1992 (with peak in November 1991). German recognition came in December 1991 so make your own conclusions.

That's all good and well, but how do you explain the part about eating tourists?

Now to HofT

Well, it's hard to say. War changed a lot of things. As of Bosnia, it was really nice country with very nice people before the war (nicest on planet I say). And Bosnian Moslems were definitely the "mildest" Moslems in world, most of them were actually not religious (but were called Moslems because in ex Yugoslavia "Moslem" was also nationality, not only religion). Today, things are...well, they are different in every single area I think. Sarajevo is big city for bosnian matters, so there people live pretty much together and there are no big problems - after all, large number of Serbs from Sarajevo fought against serbian rebels, as well as large number of Croats from Sarajevo fought against Bosnian Croats during short Croat-Moslem conflict.
In smaller places things are probably worse, with addition that Croat-Moslem relations are, well, kinda calm (except in Mostar, town divided on two parts - Croatian /or Christian because Serbs are in that part too/ and Moslem). Situation in Republika Srpska (serbian part of Bosnia) is difficult, because this part is absolutely worst when it comes to refugees coming back. Almost no one returned to Republika Srpska - and there are almost no Moslems in that area, while remaining Croats probably live okay.

As for Kosovo, that's even more difficult question. Some of my serbian friends (yes, we do have many friendships between, because we lived in same country for decades) have an opinion that Serbia should let Kosovo go. Not on emotional level, so actually nobody will say that out loud, but problem is that despite it's historic importance for Serbia, Kosovo today is large large burden. Country is economically destroyed, and Kosovo is in even worse situation. Majority of Serbs already left it and moved to central Serbia - so you have situation that you live in economically destroyed country with area where there are 90% of Albanians, dangerous living and unhuman conditions by all means. However, as for your real question, Albanians are not so much of Moslems. I don't think religion is very important for most of them. They are tribal kind of people with uncivilized traditions (talking about Kosovars now, not Albanians in general) and that's it.
It's pretty certain that Kosovo is black hole of Europe and the most uncivilized part of continent, and that includes both Albanians and Serbs living there (including also small croatian enclave Janjevo). I am not blaming them or anything, I don't think that they should all be isolated or something...just saying how it is. I don't know if I would rather go to Afghanistan or to Kosovo, and that says it all.

To explane it (kunikuni might think that it's some kind of fact just kidding kuni) it was from touristic thread where one American says that he is scared of visiting Croatia, so I told him that he should be because we eat tourist

Could you please give a quote for that, HofT?

For most, if not all, the retirement of Genscher came surpringly, was "for personal reasons" and until this morning (I just heard him on radio), he himself still says that after such a long time as Foreign Minister, someone should make way for others. (N.B.: he was one of the most popular German Foreign Ministers ever.)

Yes, Walter, he was very popular and I knew him reasonably well as I was working in Bonn at the time. He took this criticism personally, I think, and being an honest man he resigned.

MOU - thank you for the reply. Would you agree that the billions the EU has sunk into Bosnia reconstruction were mostly wasted?

Although I've met him only once and not in Bonn :wink: - I'm sure, you are correct about his honesty.

HofT - well, most of it probably, especially since european monitoring proved to be unefficient, and they act more like Bosnia is their protectorat or colony. Republika Srpska is still behaving the way they want, all war criminals are well protected, and except building a bridge they haven't done anything in Mostar where Croats and Moslems are not in the war, but situation is almost like in Berlin before falling of the wall - nobody goes to the other side of the river.

Good example is Banjaluka. EU invested lots of money for rebuilding Mosque burned by Serbs. Mosque is built, but almost none of Moslem refugees returned to Banjaluka and there is no prospect of it happenning soon

For Hoft..in reply to south Serbia
I take it you mean the Kosovo region and also parts of macedonia and Greece..

<<I wonder if either of you would comment on the situation south of that old Austro-Hungarian border, i.e. the lands previously taken over by the Ottoman Turks, and the possible future - if any - for the Islamic enclaves in that part of the Balkans. Thank you. >>

You are most welcome:-) The situation is very good now that the George Soros funded John Kerry is no longer in the picture. His party received donations from the KLA/UCK and I understand this was filmed by a Dutch documentary crew. The American Albanian Civic league who has been most active in this area has suffered a setback in their attempts to carve out a greater albania.
I think i should mention here that my wife is shia ismaeli moslem from the former British East Africa and we are both very pleased that GWB has been returned to office.
Radical Islam is our common enemy.
My wife's mix is Persian/East Indian/African

re MyOwnUsername's volumous reply:-)
Firstly druze ,don't try belittling your debator, it belittles yourself in the process. So we dissagree about some things, that's life:-)
Now with regard to your criticism of the links I posted ,all the comments are sourced as to origins and verifyable. No problem. Also before you repeat the mantra about tinfoil hats remember that I posted links to you from israeli sources and Canadian. So what if I posted Serbian links I will even post Slobo links if I think them valid.
I never liked Slobo, I always supported the Royalists and Prince Aleksander who despise him for being communist, http://www.royalfamily.org Aleksander is godson to the queen of England and a great great grandson of the British queen victoria, he returned home after his palace and lands were returned.
lol! now you claim that because a Serbian source is quoted it is obviously wrong? Geez mate, look at the reams of bs about the non exsistant dead in Kosovo. From nato claims of 100,000 dead to UN claims of 10,000 dead to the actual figure on all sides...2,200 Less than nato killed in 78 days in that war.
You are totally incorrect about the Serbian casualties in Opreation Storm, there are many references, try a google...so therefore quit the 'funny links' comments ok, you cannot give me any back because your comments are opinion only.. izvinite me but it is true.

Premature recognition is dicussed at great length by Lord carrington in the award winning documentary 'Yugoslavia the Avoidable War' it is also verified by other well known notables such as Colin Powell and the late Nora Belloff, respected journalist and historian.

As for Bosnia, Izetbegovich was another nazi yet he was dressed up by the west to look moderate. His book Islamic Declaration is an affront to decency and a call to jihad in Europe. thankfully both he and Tudjman are deceased otherwise I am sure both would have been indicted.
For those who have forgotten the muslim history of the balkans run a google search, keywords hanjar WW2 - the same name from ww2 was ressurected the 1990s by Izetbegovich.
For the Kosovo Albanians run a search - ss skenderbeg
That way friend MOU you can't accuse me of funny links:-) lol!
Hvala Mou...
As you will see by the links the SS were busy boys amongst muslims, thanks to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem..
I must give a muslim link for you mate in support of that comment...
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/index.htm
Frome the website of Prof. (Sheikh) Abdul Hadi Palazzi (who) has been a lecturer in the Department of the History of Religion at the University of Velletri (Rome, Italy).
In 1987, after completing his secular and religious education in Rome and Cairo, he was asked to serve as an Imam (spiritual leader) for the Italian Islamic Community. In addition to numerous Masters Degrees, Prof. Palazzi holds a Ph.D in Islamic Sciences by decree of the Grand Mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
Have a nice day:-)

Eating tourists:-)
Hell Mou, I knew that was a joke, you guys are ok, unlike the wahhabe Islamist mujahadeen who live in Bosnia, and it's beheadings which are their custom, not cannibalism.
Bin laden has a Bosnian passport and was sighted by a german journalist sitting in the office of Izetbegovic so the report goes..