Milosevic: West provoked war in Balkans

Swolf is just lunatic, and that's it. His sources were payed ads in newspapers, websites of serbian nationalists and websites of american and international organizations that opposed NATO action in Kosovo, but in the same time oppose all Bush's actions Swolf passionately defends (and most of them relate to USA as Nazi state)

I would like to hear Swolf though (if he would be able to hold actual conversation) to explane us why he blindly believe documentary made by totally anonymous (anonymous HERE, not only worldwide) serbian director that claims that concentration camps for Muslims in Bosnia (held by Serbs) are false, and at the same time he insist that we should all think that Michael Moore's documentaries are false.

Hmmm good one.

Anonymous Documentary? Not So.
In reply to the assertion of anonymous Serbian director's documentary.
The director is not anonymous at all.
"'Judgement!' is based on footage shot by Serbian TV and edited by Mihajlo and Petar Ilic of Ilke Productions, who have graciously permitted Emperor's Clothes to use their work to produce this film for an English-speaking audience."
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/film/judgment.htm

Appeal judges in The Hague have ruled that Milosevic has the right to defend himself but must have stand-by lawyers.

The title of the thread is that the west initiated the war in Yugoslavia. This is the thruth as verified by Lawrence Eagleberger in this 1991 article.
""Der November 1991 und die Folgen für Jugoslawien:
US slams Germany for Yugoslav war "

"Former U.S. secretary of state Lawrence Eagleberger has laid the blame for the civil war in former Yugoslavia squarely on the shoulders of Germany.

Speaking on American PBS-TV in December 1994, Eagleberger declared that Germany bears "full responsibility" for the bloody conflict because of its "insistence on recognising Slovenia and Croatia at all costs" in November 1991. As predicted by the UN, the U.S. State Department and the European Community, the German action led to a wildfire escalation of the conflict to Bosnia, he said. Eagleberger spoke as the Atlantic Alliance sank deeper into a state of crisis. "
Fair use only..
http://www.klick-nach-rechts.de/germany/croatia.htm

I'm sure that you accidently pasted wrong link, because A2K is (at least mainly) serious site, so I am positive that you would never leave a link to a site of lunatics and religious fanatics with articles about world plot of German Nazis and Islam Jihad Terrorists to destroy USA and Israel.

BTW, considering blabling about German recognition of Croatia and Slovenia it came in December of 1991st, when many croatian towns and cities were already heavily destroyed by serbian troops. Here are pics from November 18th:

Town that payed prize for German recognition of Croatia that will occur month later /but Serbs knew that will happen, so.../



People that payed same prize...(women and children made refugees, males mostly killed and their bodies are in many mass graves around city - today modern and european Serbian government is prosecuting responsible for atrocities in Vukovar)





Btw, kunikuni, are you just swolf with a new nickname, or there are really two of your kind on this planet?

BTW, about anonymous directors:

When you put "Ilke Productions" in Google you have 2 results - both are same article (one linked above).

Since you can find all the bizarre stuff on Google, including 18,300 articles about stuff like "Holocaust never happened", "Belgians are actually Evil Red Bunnies from Venus", or "Swolf and Kunikuni share Nobel Prize for Medicine, after discovering how concentration camps are good for Health: Goebbels upset and calls it fraud" - I think it's pretty obvius how incredibly known is famous "Ilke Productions".

and, btw, their anonimity (or not) is absolutely not the point of my post

Croatia isn't the main item on the tribunal's accusations against Milocevic, rather his actions against Moslems in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo. Since he doesn't recognize the tribunal's jurisdiction in actions he took at a time when he was president of a country which then included these territories (in the case of Kosovo, still does) he has no choice but to represent himself.

Dragging in Belgians-as-Bunnies sites doesn't add to the discussion, exactly, nor does use of words like Hrvatska, when an English word for Croatia exists. It does display some lack of objectivity, however, amply proven in the remainder of the posts.

As far as the ex-Yugoslav Moslems are concerned, btw, both Croatia and Serbia took part in the actions described in the indictment. The site in Yiddish is admittedly shaky as to facts, but the report of Dutch Intel was very clear:

"The volume of weapons flown into Croatia was enormous, partly because of a steep Croatian "transit tax". Croatian forces creamed off between 20% and 50% of the arms. The report stresses that this entire trade was clearly illicit. The Croats themselves also obtained massive quantities of illegal weapons from Germany, Belgium and Argentina - again in contravention of the UN arms embargo."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/yugo/article/0,2763,688327,00.html

None of the above is to be construed as implying that Germany is to blame:

"Meanwhile, the secret services of Ukraine, Greece and Israel were busy arming the Bosnian Serbs. Mossad was especially active and concluded a deal with the Bosnian Serbs at Pale involving a substantial supply of artillery shells and mortar bombs. In return they secured safe passage for the Jewish population out of the besieged town of Sarajevo. Subsequently, the remaining population was perplexed to find that unexploded mortar bombs landing in Sarajevo sometimes had Hebrew markings."

Btw, those mortar bombs are sitting in a warehouse, available for inspection <G>

Re;MyOwnUsername
I only have one Nickname. As for photos heres some more..
As for references I am not interested in the sites, I am interested in the accuracy of the "verifiable" information. It is easier for me to post you a reference already available.
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/1/rem.htm

The former Canadian Ambassador to Yugoslavia also has some pictures and comments, I suppose you are going to say he is a conspiracy freak as well.
http://www.deltax.net/bissett/a-anniversary.htm
(Ambassador Bissett)
"In 1990 he was appointed Canadian Ambassador to Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania. He therefore witnessed at first hand the Yugoslav tragedy to which he attributes much of the blame to Western diplomatic blundering and deliberate scheming. He was recalled from Yugoslavia in the summer of 1992."
http://www.deltax.net/bissett/author.htm

HofT, sorry, but where you saw word "Hrvatska"? I'm bit confused now Otherwise, you are mostly correct, except for the fact that Croatia did anything in Bosnia. Bosnian Croats did, and in some periods of war they are equally shamefull as Bosnian Serbs.
As for weapons, of course Croatia got weapons illegaly. UN weapon embargo was one of the most shamefull actions in all history - all former Yugoslav Army weapons and facilities were in serbian hands, and UN gets same embargo for Croats and Bosnians. How appropriate.

Kunikuni - you are completely mixing periods, situations and actually, even wars. What happened in early 90's in Slovenia (for very short period), Croatia and Bosnia is one thing (pure serbian agression, since wars were held only on slovenian, croatian and bosnian territory, not a single bullet was fired on serbian territory, and neither Croatia, nor Slovenia or Bosnia never claimed any part of serbian territory to be theirs) - and what happened in late 90's in Kosovo is completely another thing.

Now, Kosovo IS historic part of Serbia, and although it's truth that in one period Kosovo Albanians had practicaly no human rights, they are definitely not innocent in conflict. And, you might be surprised, but I actually opposed NATO action. First of all, I think that IF there was time for action then it was when Serbia was doing in Croatia and Bosnia the same thing Iraq did in Kuwait. Not when Serbia was dealing with things on its own territory. Second, NATO proved to be very un-efficient (sorry, I lack a word here). If they were bombing only military objects I would maybe agree, but they killed a lot of civilians, they simply destroyed country for nothing. Kosovo problem is not solved, both Albanians and Serbs over there live in conditions that are not only not civilized but completely not human, and already economically destroyed country (all Serbia, not just Kosovo) was destroyed in military way as well.


As for Serbo-Croatian war, I can only tell you that thing that says the best about it is fact that Croatian Serbs war leader deeply apologized and expressed shame for his and his compatriots actions. I am bit in a hurry now, so if you want to read his exact words (and many other things about all Balkan conflicts) I can suggest you to go to http://www.b92.net - this is serbian website with good english section and search engine and with a lot of news and reports.

BTW, HofT, serbian agression on Croatia is not MAIN item in Milosevic's trial, but is ITEM of it

And, I really hope that your remark about "Hrvatska" was not about location in my profile, because in that case that would be extremely bizarre.

Thanks for the very interesting link, MOU.


I think the NATO action was necessary, but as you said, also they boming and killed civillians. This was actually not justified.

Yes, and that is the main point. They simply bombed whatever they saw on their way. They haven't harmed serbian military forces in Kosovo region, or anywhere (I mean, they did, among all other things), they were just destroying country.

Re Reply MOU
Zdravo MOU kako este?
OK, I can see where you are coming from now. First a little about me. I am posting from canada and am a Brit. I have lived in several countries including the Baltic and Britain and New Zealand. There is a large Dalmatian community there. Also I have Serbian mates in England and OZ. I have a soft spot for the ex Yu and I don't believe what happened should have happened to any of you. It could have been avoided.
Let's be honest with each other. I have no axe to grind with you and hv was not my reference.
Lets also be honest about Croatia. You mention Serbian agression yet it was Croatia who ceded from the former Yu. It could have been done peacefully. it wasn't mainly in part to the Croatian diaspora in Germany and their (communist) version of history. The Serbs had that too so they weren't alone. Take the release of former top secret documents from WW2 reported in the London Independant concerning General Draza Mihailovic's Chetniks as example. Tito's history had him pegged as a german collaborator for which he was executed. Tyhe MOD files totally exhonorate Draza because of communist spies in Brit intelligence who were feeding disinformation to Churchill. The Cambridge spy ring (anyone remember that and klugman?) Then you had the coverup of Jasenovac in Croatia etc. History revisionism.
Tudjman employed Ruder Finn to rewrite the 90's as well.
Tudjman was a fascist lets see if you agree there first.
The US supplied covert Iranian arms shipments to Bosnia through Croatia illegally. lets see if you agree there.
Operation Storm ethnically cleansed over 200,000 Serbs from the krajina the single biggest ethnic cleansing of the war. They did it with US support and they were trained by the US mercenary firm MPRI lets see if you agree there.
If you dissagree i will post you the proof.
hvala....

Okay, you said first, so:
1. Tudjman was idiot. I wouldn't call him fascist because he was active anti-fascistic fighter in WW2 (partisan fighter during all war, later becoming general /I'm not sure if that's the english word for this military function), but when he got old he became - well, idiot. It's a bit hard to talk really badly about dead people, especially when those are people you lived with in a way, but that's truth. One of his biggest mistake was history revisionism, especially since it was based on some kind of "revenge", which lead us to part:

2. Jasenovac and ex YU republics in WW2. Sad thing is that you almost can't find real truth (ex YU area is not alone in this). Jasenovac is one of the biggest crimes of humanity on this planet, but problem is that all the numbers and stories were really extremely pumped - answer was not equally but even more idiotic: they denied almost all of it. Truth is somewhere in the middle, as well as truth about WW2 itself:

a) Croatian Nazis committed biggest crimes, but also:
b) First partisan guerilla squad was formed in Croatia
c) First anti-nazi action was taken in Croatia
d) leader of all anti-nazi movement was Croat (hardly it could happen if majority of Croats was with Ustashe Movement)
e) all Croatia was liberated by croatian partisan troops (Belgrade, for example, was liberated by Russian Red Army)

As for Chetniks, you are completely wrong. They were slaughterers and murderers just like Ustashe, with just a few minor differences:
1) They had no territory under their power, so, from obvius reason, they murderes a bit less civilians and innocent people
2) Unlike Ustashe, that were German collaborators during all war, Chetniks changed sides. At first they did collaborate with Allies, fighting against Germans, as well as fighting against partisan troops and commiting crimes against civilians. Later, they colaborated with Germans after all ties with Brits were broken.

And, now to more important, modern times:

First - War itself:

All republics that were part of Yugoslavian Federation had right to proclaim independence inside so called "AVNOJ borders" (AVNOJ is organization of anti-fasistic movement during WW2, and that remark was clearly made because borders after WW2 were somewhere slightly and somewhere pretty different then begore WW2) - they had that right by Yugoslav Constituion from 1974th (also last one). So, Croatia (as well as Slovenia, Bosnia and Macedonia) did just that - proclaimed independence - they never tried to take anything else with them. Only official, internationally recognized borders.
After all, you said you lived in Baltic as well - would you say that Lithuania (or Latvia or Estonia) are too blame if Russia attacked them when they proclaimed independence?

Second, all wars were held exclusively on non-serbian territories. Serbia first attacked Slovenia, but it was very short conflict (about a week), then Croatia, then Bosnia. Even calls for "cultural autonomy" of Serbs inside Croatia were just fraud for the world, because most of occupied territories were with large Croatian majority (two biggest towns that were occupied were Vukovar with 43% of Croats and 39% of Serbs, and Petrinja with more then 70% of Croats).

And now, the most important part: