sozobe wrote:OK, found the diary/ journal thing.
Quote:A Kerry campaign official, speaking on background, told The Washington Times yesterday that the "we" in the passage from Mr. Kerry's journal refers to "the crew on Kerry's first swift boat, operating as a crew" rather than Mr. Kerry himself.
"John Kerry didn't yet have his own boat or crew on December 2," according to the aide. "Other members of the crew had been in Vietnam for some time and had been shot at and Kerry knew that at the time. However, the crew had not yet been fired on while they served together on PCF 44 under Lieutenant Kerry."
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=861966
So that would make sense to me, that this whole crew as a whole, this "we" (not "I"), hadn't been under fire. The fact that other members of the crew had been shot at in Vietnam and he knew as much underscores that he was talking about all of them, collectively. Like, if the Olympic basketball team is made up of people from various teams who have lost on their own teams, the new Olympic basketball team can still say "we are undefeated." (Until this year, of course. But I digress.)
At worst, though, it seems like a "Christmas" misstatement, in his own journal no less. There is lots of other corroboration for enemy fire when he got his first Purple Heart; nimh lays out most of it here:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=864265#864265
Though more has come in since, I think.
Give me more info on 2 and 3 and I'll see what I can do.
Awesome Sozobe. I don't know why I was unable to find this myself. I'm retarded like that. In any case, I consider this controversy pretty much put to rest.
There is still the question of why Kerry doesn't post the after-action report on his wesbite, along with the others. I've seen people argue that there was no after-action report, ostensibly because there was no action to report.
I consider that a non-argument though, since the unavailability of the report means that it can niether confirm nor refute the arguments of either side.
IronLionZion wrote:
There is still the question of why Kerry doesn't post the after-action report on his wesbite, along with the others. I've seen people argue that there was no after-action report, ostensibly because there was no action to report.
I consider that a non-argument though, since the unavailability of the report means that it can niether confirm nor refute the arguments of either side.
here's something i came across a few weeks back. stupidly, i saved the text but not the source. but, i did find refernce to the same "anomalie" in the article linked afterward;
"O'Neill has said the initials "KJW" on the bottom of the report "identified" it as having been written by Kerry. It is unclear why this should be so, as Kerry's initials are JFK. A review of other Swift boat after-action reports at the Naval Historical Center reveals several that include the initials "KJW" but describe incidents at which Kerry was not present."
"Other Swift boat veterans, including Thurlow and Chenoweth, have said they believe Kerry wrote the March 13 report. "I didn't like to write reports," said Thurlow, who was the senior officer in the five-boat flotilla. "John would write the thing up in longhand, and it would then be typed up and sent up the line."
kjw
DontTreadOnMe wrote:IronLionZion wrote:
There is still the question of why Kerry doesn't post the after-action report on his wesbite, along with the others. I've seen people argue that there was no after-action report, ostensibly because there was no action to report.
I consider that a non-argument though, since the unavailability of the report means that it can niether confirm nor refute the arguments of either side.
here's something i came across a few weeks back. stupidly, i saved the text but not the source. but, i did find refernce to the same "anomalie" in the article linked afterward;
"O'Neill has said the initials "KJW" on the bottom of the report "identified" it as having been written by Kerry. It is unclear why this should be so, as Kerry's initials are JFK. A review of other Swift boat after-action reports at the Naval Historical Center reveals several that include the initials "KJW" but describe incidents at which Kerry was not present."
"Other Swift boat veterans, including Thurlow and Chenoweth, have said they believe Kerry wrote the March 13 report. "I didn't like to write reports," said Thurlow, who was the senior officer in the five-boat flotilla. "John would write the thing up in longhand, and it would then be typed up and sent up the line."
kjw
That's referencing his bronze star and third Purple Heart. I'm wondering about the after action report for his first Purple Heart. I cannot really find any.
IronLionZion wrote:That's referencing his bronze star and third Purple Heart. I'm wondering about the after action report for his first Purple Heart. I cannot really find any.
hi ilz, how are ya?
i haven't either. i really don't think it's important. i am trying very hard to return my attention to the present and the future. they aren't makin' it easy though! lol but i remembered that i had found this weeks back, and thought it might be of interest.
Navy Says Kerry's Service Awards OK'd
Navy Says Kerry's Service Awards OK'd
Sat Sep 18, 6:34 AM ET
By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
WASHINGTON - The Navy's chief investigator concluded Friday that procedures were followed properly in the approval of Sen. John Kerry's Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals, according to an internal Navy memo.
Vice Adm. R.A. Route, the Navy inspector general, conducted the review of Kerry's Vietnam-ear military service awards at the request of Judicial Watch, a public interest group. The group has also asked for the release of additional records documenting the Democratic presidential candidate's military service.
Judicial Watch had requested in August that the Navy open an investigation of the matter, but Route said in an internal memo obtained by The Associated Press that he saw no reason for a full-scale probe.
"Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed," Route wrote in the memo sent Friday to Navy Secretary Gordon England.
"In particular, the senior officers who awarded the medals were properly delegated authority to do so. In addition, we found that they correctly followed the procedures in place at the time for approving these awards."
Some veterans have challenged Kerry's version of the circumstances surrounding the incident that led to his Silver Star award for battlefield heroism, as well as his three Purple Heart medals.
The Silver Star was awarded for his actions in pursuit of enemy forces while commander of swift boat unit PCF-94 in Vietnam in February 1969.
Judicial Watch also asked the Navy inspector general to investigate Kerry's anti-war activities after he returned from Vietnam and left active duty.
The group's president, Tom Fitton, called Route's review a "whitewash" and said Judicial Watch would "appeal as appropriate."
"The Navy IG obviously is afraid of the political ramifications of a thorough investigation into a presidential candidate's service record," Fitton said in a statement.
Route concluded that there was no justification for looking further into the decisions to award the medals or the anti-war activities.
"Conducting any additional review regarding events that took place over 30 years ago would not be productive," he wrote. "The passage of time would make reconstruction of the facts and circumstances unreliable, and would not allow the information gathered to be considered in the context of the time in which the events took place.
"Our review also considered the fact that Senator Kerry's post-active duty activities were public and that military and civilian officials were aware of his actions at the time. For these reasons, I have determined that Senator Kerry's awards were properly approved and will take no further action in this matter."
Quote:"Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed," Route wrote in the memo sent Friday to Navy Secretary Gordon England.
This 'approval of process' doesn't mean he earned the medals as he originated some of the action reports. It just means procedures from the initial write up were followed.
Also:
Quote:NAVY INSPECTOR GENERAL CLAIMS INVESTIGATION OF KERRY MEDALS WOULD NOT BE "PRODUCTIVE"
Leaves Questions About Circumstances Of Kerry Medals Unanswered
(Washington, DC) Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, this evening received a letter, via facsimile, from Rear Admiral R.A. Route, the Navy Inspector General ("IG"), concluding that the process by which Senator Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts in 1968 and 1969 was properly followed.
Judicial Watch requested an investigation into Kerry's awards and conduct by the Defense Department and the Navy in letters dated August 18 and September 8, 2004.
The letter by Rear Admiral Route is also available on the Internet by clicking here (Adobe Acrobat Reader required).
Admiral Route's letter only discusses the Navy IG's examination of process and procedure concerning Kerry's awards. The letter claims existing documentation regarding Kerry's medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed. No specific documentary examples were cited or offered as exhibits.
The Navy IG stated that "Conducting any additional review regarding events that took place over thirty years ago would not be productive." Admiral Route also declined to investigate Kerry's conduct as a commissioned officer in the Naval Reserve, including his meeting with officials of the North Vietnamese government and the Viet Cong.
"Admiral Route's politicized letter raises more questions than it answers. Kerry's fellow and commanding officers have made credible, sworn allegations that call into question the legitimacy of John Kerry's military service awards. The Navy IG obviously is afraid of the political ramifications of a thorough investigation into a presidential candidate's service record. There is no statute of limitations, as the admiral seems to suggest, for fraudulent medals and questionable conduct. We will appeal as appropriate this whitewash," stated Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.
Source
So Brand X are you indicating that the Pentagon erred? If so, are you also indicating that it's only in Kerry's case that such errors occured, or are you suggesting at all awarding of such medals are suspect in your eyes? Please help me here, I 'm not sure I am following your thinking.
No, I'm saying that from what has been brought forth through all this whole ordeal that Kerry falsified an action report or two, even has contradicted his war stories...but I digress, he then sent the paper work up the chain where it was likely properly processed as Judicial Watch has found.
Sure others could have done the same, but obviously JW isn't satisfied with that part of the investigation as Route checked paper trail and called it a day.
It's the same with computers...garbage in, garbage out.
Brand X
Brand X wrote: "It's the same with computers...garbage in, garbage out."
It is the same with some poster's spin: Garbage in, garbage out?
BBB
Furthermore it looks like this is an internal memo that leaked to the eager AP bunch.
Quote:WASHINGTON - The Navy's chief investigator concluded Friday that procedures were followed properly in the approval of Sen. John Kerry's Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals, according to an internal Navy memo.
It's preposterous that Kerry needs to defend his service while Bush gets a pass when more serious questions are raised about his service or lack thereof.
I'm not sure if this has been covered but to question Kerry on the legitimacy of his medals is to question the wrong man. Kerry was not the approval authority of his own medals. If his Chain of Command saw fit to recommend approval of the award recommendations the issue is with them, not Kerry. These awards are pretty heavy duty and not just handed out willy nilly. The recommendation has to pass through several high ranking individuals to get to the final approval authority. If there was doubt on the circumstances surrounding the incident of which the award was recommended it can be stopped at the very first officer in Kerry's Chain of Command. It's just as easy to recommend disapproval as it is to recommend approval. No officer who values his rank and position would be willing to pass a document to his superiors if he didn't think it was kosher.
RP, What you say is totally true. However, one of the SBVFT reversed his own position on Kerry during the Vietnam war and now. He wrote Kerry earned his medals, but not claims he didn't. Who should we believe? Most of those that served on that same day and were present durig the action all support Kerry. Most of the SBVFT weren't even there.
I believe Kerry earned his medals because as I said these awards are not handed out like door prizes and are signed off on by his superiors. Any doubt raised by his superiors as to whether Kerry deserved an award would have stopped the recommendation cold.
I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS STILL IN PLAY !!!!
This is all, well, a bunch of bull. Plain and simple. And it hasn't worked. Bush is an abject failure, and the majority of American people may come to know that very soon now.
Most Bush supporters are blind, deaf, and dumb. I don't give them that much credit; to realize Bush is a failure. They still haven't seen the damage done to international relations, the war in Iraq getting worse by the day, and the increase in our unemployment ranks. If they can't see that, only a a-bomb will wake them up from the stuper.
Gee C.I., I don't even get a social security check for my handicaps!
I wanted to bump this thread up in light of recent conversations with new members.
Do you really think that the new member("s") is going to read this thread?
