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Yet another rape question.

 
 
chai2
 
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 05:46 pm
This came up on a different forum I frequent.

Both people consent to sex. The man is aware the woman does not want children. Regardless of other birth control she may be using, she requests he use a condom. She would not have sex with him without him using one.

During sex he removes condom and continues to have sex with her. She doesn't realize he's done so. She isn't aware until afterwards.


Has this now turned into rape?
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 05:49 pm
@chai2,
What if a woman lies to a man about being on the birth control pill. Isn't that the same situation?

I don't know if this is rape, but if one of these cases is rape than the other is too.
chai2
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 06:02 pm
@maxdancona,
I'm not asking about the the other case. I'm asking about this.

So I'll put you done for "don't know".

Next case.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 06:39 pm
@chai2,
They are the same case Chai.

The only difference is that the genders are reversed. But simply reversing the genders doesn't change the question. How you answer these questions depends a lot on your gender-based stereotypes.

I am not saying "don't know". I am suggesting that the question is more about gender stereotypes than it is about rape.

I would like to hear your answer to the question.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 06:54 pm
This is an interesting related case, a Palestinian man was convicted of rape and served jail time. They had consensual sex, but the woman consented when she thought he was Jewish. When she discovered he was Palestinian, it became rape.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/palestinian-claimed-jew-jailed-rape-deception/story?id=11224513

Of course, if the genders (or ethnicities) were reversed, this never would have gone to trial. I consider this a grave injustice.
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 06:55 pm
No, this wasn't rape - which I think is force-able sex.

Deceitful, dishonest, but so would it be if he told her he was great in bed - and wasn't.


ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:07 pm
Have any of you talkers been raped?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:09 pm
@ossobuco,
That is an awful question to be throwing around Osso. Would you believe me if I said that I had?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:12 pm
@maxdancona,
I might or might not. Tell me all about it.
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:13 pm
I am not certain if rape is the exact word we would need to use, but it is a close cousin, at the least.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:14 pm
@ossobuco,
Yes, Osso, I am a victim (I am supposed to say survivor, but **** it) of childhood sexual abuse. No, I am not ready to give you the details in this particular forum right now... because it shouldn't really matter.

chai2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:24 pm
@PUNKEY,
PUNKEY wrote:

No, this wasn't rape - which I think is force-able sex.

Deceitful, dishonest, but so would it be if he told her he was great in bed - and wasn't.





Good in bed is not something agreed on by all.

So, once sex is initiated, and during the course of it something happens that if the other party became aware, would have stopped the sex, that can't be considered force of a type?

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:34 pm
@maxdancona,
It does matter, but never mind, and not specifically, but that people tell, when they can, truthfully.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:36 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

I am not certain if rape is the exact word we would need to use, but it is a close cousin, at the least.


Good response.

To be a little clearer. The topic was on the subject of the pregnancy the woman might fall to.

The condition the woman gave to agreeing to have sex was to have it in a way that minimized pregnancy. If this did happen at the start, sex would have been forced.

Is it more than dishonesty, deception to metaphorically start holding a gun to a womans head while in the middle of intercourse?



maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:36 pm
@ossobuco,
Thank you Osso.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:42 pm
@chai2,
I still want to know how this is different when the genders are reversed (and it is the woman lying about birth control).

This is a valid question. Edgar, do you have an opinion in the case where it is the woman who is being dishonest about birth control?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:50 pm
@maxdancona,
I get to ask it.
chai2
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:55 pm
@maxdancona,
Because women become pregnant, carry the fetus, give birth, has the abortion, etc etc.

If the woman lies about taking birth control, she's still the one who goes through this.

As I clarified to edgar, the discussion on another forum was regarding the pregnancy of the woman, a woman who has made it clear she did not want pregnancy for herself.

Although the man would be a father/father to be, that does not equal physically having an unwanted pregnancy, labor, abortion etc.

And, most importantly, on the other forum, it was not a "what if the genders were reversed" discussion. It was as I presented it in the OP.

The reason I presented it here was to see if in the general population, which A2k represents more than those on this other forum, would mirror each other.

































maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:59 pm
@ossobuco,
I fear if I told my story it would get a very hostile reception here. And, I don't think my personal experience is really relevant to the question. I only mentioned it because you asked. Would you ask ask this of a woman who said she was a victim of sexual abuse (really I am not looking for this to be part of the discussion... there is some pain here).

I am just expressing the opinion that on questions like these, men and women should be treated as equals.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2016 08:01 pm
@chai2,
That is not correct Chai.

In either case (the man lying or the woman lying) the woman can choose whether to be a mother or not. Should the woman choose to bring the baby to term (in either case) the man is a father whether he wants to be or not. The woman has the power to choose, the man doesn't. The consequences of this deception are greater when the man is the victim than when the women is.

The original argument you made suggested that the deception was what might turn consensual sex into rape. Certainly you agree that both of these cases involve deception.
 

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