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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 02:49 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
If your notion of REALITY is correct, Life...the argument against abortion grows even weaker IF THERE WERE A CHILD dying in the abortion process, Life.

You do realize that, don't you.


I'm probably not the only one who does not see why it would be better if children are dying, so why don't you explain it to us?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 03:12 pm
real life wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
If your notion of REALITY is correct, Life...the argument against abortion grows even weaker IF THERE WERE A CHILD dying in the abortion process, Life.

You do realize that, don't you.


I'm probably not the only one who does not see why it would be better if children are dying, so why don't you explain it to us?


I didn't say it would be better if children are dying....so stop misquoting me. I think it is terrible when a child dies...and like any normal individual, my heart goes out to any parent experiencing such mental trauma.

But if your notion of REALITY is correct, Life...

...that means there is a Heaven, where souls that die without sin on them get to spend all of eternity in the presence of your god.

Children....babies....are unblemished.

Your god should have no trouble having their souls in its presence.

So if you are correct that it is a child that is dying in an abortion....esssentially an abortion is a free-pass into eternal bliss for that child.

I don't think it would be a stretch to suppose (once again supposing your fairytale world exists)....that many of the children who make it to Heaven to spend eternity with your god....would not have made it if they had gone the usual route.

They are, after all, unwanted....and many probably would end up all screwed up. Many, instead of spending eternity in kthe presence of your god on this free pass....might have lost this chance for an eternity of bliss...and, depending on your "beliefs" in Hell...might spend eternity being subjected to endless, relentless, excruciating torture by this loving god of yours.

I don't think it is a stretch to suppose that each time one of you nut cases "saves the life of a child" by preventing an abortion....you condemn it to the possibility of Hell....rather than Heaven.

In fact, I don't think it is a stretch to suppose that each time one of you nut cases "saves the life of a child" by preventing an abortion....you have short circuited a decision of your god....who may realize that the "child" in question has a better chance at "salvation" if it finishes life before it really starts than if it gets the chance to screw up.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 03:22 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
real life wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
If your notion of REALITY is correct, Life...the argument against abortion grows even weaker IF THERE WERE A CHILD dying in the abortion process, Life.

You do realize that, don't you.


I'm probably not the only one who does not see why it would be better if children are dying, so why don't you explain it to us?


I didn't say it would be better if children are dying....so stop misquoting me. I think it is terrible when a child dies...and like any normal individual, my heart goes out to any parent experiencing such mental trauma.

But if your notion of REALITY is correct, Life...

...that means there is a Heaven, where souls that die without sin on them get to spend all of eternity in the presence of your god.

Children....babies....are unblemished.

Your god should have no trouble having their souls in its presence.

So if you are correct that it is a child that is dying in an abortion....esssentially an abortion is a free-pass into eternal bliss for that child.

I don't think it would be a stretch to suppose (once again supposing your fairytale world exists)....that many of the children who make it to Heaven to spend eternity with your god....would not have made it if they had gone the usual route.

They are, after all, unwanted....and many probably would end up all screwed up. Many, instead of spending eternity in kthe presence of your god on this free pass....might have lost this chance for an eternity of bliss...and, depending on your "beliefs" in Hell...might spend eternity being subjected to endless, relentless, excruciating torture by this loving god of yours.

I don't think it is a stretch to suppose that each time one of you nut cases "saves the life of a child" by preventing an abortion....you condemn it to the possibility of Hell....rather than Heaven.

In fact, I don't think it is a stretch to suppose that each time one of you nut cases "saves the life of a child" by preventing an abortion....you have short circuited a decision of your god....who may realize that the "child" in question has a better chance at "salvation" if it finishes life before it really starts than if it gets the chance to screw up.
Well then Frank, by your logic, the god of your bible is a good god, sending all those Egyptian babies to heaven. What a crock - trying to argue the bible with one who doesn't believe the bible and then quotes it in defense of his proposition. Besides, the soul does not survive death. Where did you ever get that idea?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 04:13 pm
neologist wrote:
Well then Frank, by your logic, the god of your bible is a good god, sending all those Egyptian babies to heaven.



I thought they weren't babies, Neo.

Try to keep your head on straight. I know how difficult it is for someone like you...but try.


Quote:
What a crock - trying to argue the bible with one who doesn't believe the bible and then quotes it in defense of his proposition.


Each comment I made was prefaced by "...if your religion is correct"...or some form of that.

Don't you know anything about how to argue logically?


Quote:
Besides, the soul does not survive death. Where did you ever get that idea?


I do not know if there is such a thing as a soul....and I certainly do not know, if there is one, if it survives death or not.

MY GUESS: You don't know those things either. But that does not stop you from your big-mouth pontificating about them.

You are a lark.

If you hadn't come along...I would have tried to invent someone like you.

You are too precious for words....and an outstanding help to my arguments.

Love ya, Neo.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 05:19 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
real life wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
If your notion of REALITY is correct, Life...the argument against abortion grows even weaker IF THERE WERE A CHILD dying in the abortion process, Life.

You do realize that, don't you.


I'm probably not the only one who does not see why it would be better if children are dying, so why don't you explain it to us?


I didn't say it would be better if children are dying....so stop misquoting me. I think it is terrible when a child dies...and like any normal individual, my heart goes out to any parent experiencing such mental trauma.

But if your notion of REALITY is correct, Life...

...that means there is a Heaven, where souls that die without sin on them get to spend all of eternity in the presence of your god.

Children....babies....are unblemished.

Your god should have no trouble having their souls in its presence.

So if you are correct that it is a child that is dying in an abortion....esssentially an abortion is a free-pass into eternal bliss for that child.

I don't think it would be a stretch to suppose (once again supposing your fairytale world exists)....that many of the children who make it to Heaven to spend eternity with your god....would not have made it if they had gone the usual route.

.........Many, instead of spending eternity in kthe presence of your god on this free pass....might have lost this chance for an eternity of bliss...and, depending on your "beliefs" in Hell...might spend eternity being subjected to endless, relentless, excruciating torture by this loving god of yours.

I don't think it is a stretch to suppose that each time one of you nut cases "saves the life of a child" by preventing an abortion....you condemn it to the possibility of Hell....rather than Heaven.

In fact, I don't think it is a stretch to suppose that each time one of you nut cases "saves the life of a child" by preventing an abortion....you have short circuited a decision of your god....who may realize that the "child" in question has a better chance at "salvation" if it finishes life before it really starts than if it gets the chance to screw up.


As you well know Frank, Christianity does not advocate or teach that it is better that someone never got a chance to live than if they lived. That is an absurd proposition.

Humans aren't only here to serve themselves, but also to benefit others. In your passionate defense of abortion, you may have been complicit in enabling the death of one who would find the cure for cancer; who would prevent a war; who would invent something that would benefit the whole world; who would compose beautiful music or create gorgeous art to bring joy into the lives of generations to come.

To suggest that it is better if one die as an infant and never have a chance to live is ridiculous and is not at all consistent with anything taught by Christ or advocated in the Bible, and I am sure you are well aware of that.

Frank Apisa wrote:
They are, after all, unwanted....and many probably would end up all screwed up.

Millions of children are adopted each year from situations in which they were not intended to be conceived and are placed in homes where they are welcomed and loved. Have you never heard of adoption, Frank?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 05:20 pm
Here is a link to the "Dirty Language" thread I mentioned I would be writing.

Hope you all stop by and read my essay...and comment on the subject matter.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1475120#1475120
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 05:24 pm
[quote="real life]As you well know Frank, Christianity does not advocate or teach that it is better that someone never got a chance to live than if they lived. That is an absurd proposition.[/quote]

As you SHOULD well know, Life...your god is very much in favor of killing people for all sorts of reasons. For you to pretend differently is absurd.


Quote:
Humans aren't only here to serve themselves, but also to benefit others. In your passionate defense of abortion, you may have been complicit in enabling the death of one who would find the cure for cancer; who would prevent a war; who would invent something that would benefit the whole world; who would compose beautiful music or create gorgeous art to bring joy into the lives of generations to come.


And in opposing abortion...you may have given birth to someone who may one day turn this earth into a cesspool.


Quote:
To suggest that it is better if one die as an infant and never have a chance to live is ridiculous and is not at all consistent with anything taught by Christ or advocated in the Bible, and I am sure you are well aware of that.


You have no idea if your god decided that the embryos should be destroyed for any number or reasons. If you are right that the souls of these destroyed embryos go to Heaven and spend eternity with your god in bliss....what is your problem with the thesis.

Or do you suppose your god does not welcome them?


Quote:


Frank Apisa wrote:
They are, after all, unwanted....and many probably would end up all screwed up.

Millions of children are adopted each year from situations in which they were not intended to be conceived and are placed in homes where they are welcomed and loved. Have you never heard of adoption, Frank?


Have you never heard of keeping your goddam nose out of other people's very difficult, personal decisions?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 05:51 pm
"You have no idea if your god decided that the embryos should be destroyed for any number or reasons. If you are right that the souls of these destroyed embryos go to Heaven and spend eternity with your god in bliss....what is your problem with the thesis."

Interesting point, Frank. If the embryo doesn't live long enough to come out of the woman's womb, it's assured eternity in heaven, whereas, a baby fully born and developed has a better than 50/50 chance to go to hell.

To decide whether a limited lifespan on earth (some die at a very young age because their mother is a drug addict or infected with HIV/AIDS) is better than eternity in heaven is a tough choice. Somewhat like the terrorist martyrs. LOL
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 07:50 pm
Ending the life of a child is not a "personal" decision, Frank. You say it as if it had no effect on anyone but the mother ( a word you cannot seem to bring yourself to use in this context ). You're forgetting someone.

Quote:
And in opposing abortion...you may have given birth to someone who may one day turn this earth into a cesspool.


So are you in favor of killing anyone who "might" cause the world a problem, Frank? That would be a long list.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 08:38 pm
Look, real life, your objection to abortion stems from and is driven by your religious beliefs. First, for the purposes of this discussion, which is titled "Which Religion is the One True Religion", no primacy for any religious belief system has been established. It does not follow that a particular religion-based position on anything - abortion, gardening, parking tickets, or flyfishing, has any relevance to this particular discussion. You really should get your act together before you try taking it on the road.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 10:25 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Look, real life, your objection to abortion stems from and is driven by your religious beliefs. First, for the purposes of this discussion, which is titled "Which Religion is the One True Religion", no primacy for any religious belief system has been established. It does not follow that a particular religion-based position on anything - abortion, gardening, parking tickets, or flyfishing, has any relevance to this particular discussion. You really should get your act together before you try taking it on the road.


Yeah that's always a good one and Frank has tried it too. When you run out of things to say, you simply come back with something along the lines of 'You don't belong in this discussion,' or "Why are you taking the thread off topic?' as if that was of any relevance when you range far and wide on any and every rabbit trail. What a double standard.

As you'll recall, not I but Imposter brought the abortion issue into this thread when he tried to use it to imply that Christianity was disqualified for consideration if it was pro-life.

It's too bad that you've embarrassed yourself so greatly in the discussion of abortion, and I feel bad for you. I really do. But what is done is done.

Next time, as I said you ought to fact check first. At least when it occurred some folks had the good sense to show embarrassment for you.

---------------------------------------------

So if you are done dodging the issue, are you still willing to defend the practice of the slow, painful and ghastly dismemberment of a child by slicing him in little pieces in the womb (D&C abortions)?

Or how about the forced inhalment of poisonous liquid to chemically burn the developing lungs of the baby, causing an extremely torturous and excruciatingly painful death (saline abortions)?

Or how about the feet first delivery excepting the head of the infant which is punctured and the brains vacuumed out as the arms and legs wiggle their last just outside the mothers body (partial birth abortions) ?

My point is:

Do you have the courage to speak up against ANY of these? If not, are you really qualified to judge what is and is not a "true religion" ?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 10:53 pm
I am amazed at the power of this issue. And I'll have to side with real life that abortion at any stage is the repugnant destruction of a living human being.

Legal definition?
Medical definition?

Yikes! Who would you trust with defining your existence as a human being? Ted Kennedy?

Sorry, but the hair splitting arguments I have been reading for the past few days have really disgusted me.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 11:04 pm
It's interesting to see how gory real life can get to describe an abortion while ignoring all the trauma living children are experiencing around the world. He presumes to know how all abortions are performed that affects the baby without any concern for the host mother. How many embryos were carried to full term and born with disease and other deformaties? Who is to care for them? Has real life lifted a finger to help even one of them? How about all the children in Africa? Many are starving. Many young children are raped and affected with HIV/AIDS. Who is caring for these children? It is general knowledge that in India, girl babies are killed by the millions every year. They are killed after birth. Has real life lifted a finger to save them? Who will care for all of these unwanted children? Real life sees only one side on the question of abortion, but fails to understand that the woman has the right to her body; not real life or anybody else. Nobody has a right to challenge the abortion of another women. If they feel so strongly about saving an embryo, they have plenty of opportunities to save the children already born, Otherwise, it's totally a hypocrisy.
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 11:16 pm
Wait, I don't understand abortion. Is it done when the fetus' brain is already developed?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 01:25 am
real life wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
Look, real life, your objection to abortion stems from and is driven by your religious beliefs. First, for the purposes of this discussion, which is titled "Which Religion is the One True Religion", no primacy for any religious belief system has been established. It does not follow that a particular religion-based position on anything - abortion, gardening, parking tickets, or flyfishing, has any relevance to this particular discussion. You really should get your act together before you try taking it on the road.


Yeah that's always a good one and Frank has tried it too. When you run out of things to say, you simply come back with something along the lines of 'You don't belong in this discussion,' or "Why are you taking the thread off topic?' as if that was of any relevance when you range far and wide on any and every rabbit trail. What a double standard.

See it however you wish. Its a valid observation. I don't mind the digression - its as entertaining as the main discussion, and your contributions have been chief among the entertainments offered. Nobody's marching along with your 'You don't belong in this discussion,' or "Why are you taking the thread off topic?' straw men - its just you and them in that parade.

Quote:
As you'll recall, not I but Imposter brought the abortion issue into this thread when he tried to use it to imply that Christianity was disqualified for consideration if it was pro-life.

Yoiu do haul around an army of straw men.

Quote:
It's too bad that you've embarrassed yourself so greatly in the discussion of abortion, and I feel bad for you. I really do. But what is done is done.

And you have a remarkable propensity for projection and wiishful thinking.

Quote:
Next time, as I said you ought to fact check first. At least when it occurred some folks had the good sense to show embarrassment for you.

No embarrassment at this end - any you sense is right there with you.

---------------------------------------------

Quote:
So if you are done dodging the issue, are you still willing to defend the practice of the slow, painful and ghastly dismemberment of a child by slicing him in little pieces in the womb (D&C abortions)?

Yet another straw man - I've done no such thing.

Quote:
Or how about the forced inhalment of poisonous liquid to chemically burn the developing lungs of the baby, causing an extremely torturous and excruciatingly painful death (saline abortions)?

And another - keep it up, you're on a roll.

Quote:
Or how about the feet first delivery excepting the head of the infant which is punctured and the brains vacuumed out as the arms and legs wiggle their last just outside the mothers body (partial birth abortions) ?

There ya go - I knew I could count on you for consistency.

Quote:
My point is:

Do you have the courage to speak up against ANY of these? If not, are you really qualified to judge what is and is not a "true religion" ?

Unless there's one under your hat, you have no point, you have an agenda, an agenda which you so far have neither presented nor defended in valid manner. Its easy to understand your insistance upon claiming victory; you have displayed no concept of what the exercize is or how it is to be conducted.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 02:56 am
real life wrote:
Ending the life of a child is not a "personal" decision, Frank.


It is not a child we are talking about here, Life...it is an embryo or a fetus. Big difference. Try to get it.


Quote:
You say it as if it had no effect on anyone but the mother ( a word you cannot seem to bring yourself to use in this context ).


If a woman gets pregnant for the first time and has a miscarriage....she is not a mother. Being a mother involves having had a child. (Except for some theists who are "mothers" even though they have not had a child...and maybe even though they are not women.)


Quote:
You're forgetting someone.


Really? And who would that be?


Quote:

Quote:
And in opposing abortion...you may have given birth to someone who may one day turn this earth into a cesspool.


So are you in favor of killing anyone who "might" cause the world a problem, Frank? That would be a long list.


No I am not....and that is not what was said there.

Can't you anti-choice nuts ever complete at least one discussion without that kind of bullshyt?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 02:59 am
neologist wrote:
I am amazed at the power of this issue. And I'll have to side with real life that abortion at any stage is the repugnant destruction of a living human being.

Legal definition?
Medical definition?

Yikes! Who would you trust with defining your existence as a human being? Ted Kennedy?

Sorry, but the hair splitting arguments I have been reading for the past few days have really disgusted me.


Not nearly so much as theistic hypocrisy disgusts me....I assure you.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 03:03 am
The theists spout that they are anxious to attain Heaven...so they can grovel at the feet of their god for all the rest of eternity.

Here...abortion allows what they consider a whole person...a free pass into this "paradise."

They have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not this is part of their god's plans for these particular souls....so they have no way of knowing whether or not each time they "prevent" an abortion...they are twarting their god's plans.

And then they argue against someone pointing all this out to them.


One of my main objections to theism is the gross hyprocrisy needed to maintain religious thought.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 03:19 am
Reallife,

I encourage you to take your religiously biased views on abortion to your local congressman's office and follow the due process of law.

You've still failed to back up your first claim that abortion is mostly used as birth control. Below is a list of SOME of the complications that can occur with abortion (I've only listed one type). These complications, coupled with the high cost of abortion PROVE that abortion is not mostly used as birth control.

Quote:

Where in the process does it lose it's morality if employed as birth control, (which is exactly how it is used most of the time) and it remains somehow moral if used otherwise ?




- Allergic reactions to anesthesia or other medications given can occur. It is very important that you report any over-the-counter or prescription medications as well as illegal drugs so that the anesthetics can be adjusted accordingly.

- Bacterial infection can occur during the procedure when surgical tools enter the uterus, while symptoms won't occur for 2 to 3 days after the procedure. This happens most frequently when there is an underlying STD that is not diagnosed at the time of the abortion. Therefore, it is vitally important that you be tested for STDs prior to the abortion. Infection is the most common post-abortion complication.

- Hematometra (a uterine blood clot) can occur if the uterus does not contract (cramp) to expel all of the lining. There will be severe abdominal cramping and nausea if this occurs.

- Heavy bleeding can occur if the uterus fails to contract and may lead to a uterine blood clot, as mentioned above. Heavy bleeding may require medication, a repeat abortion, surgery, and/or transfusion.

- Heavy blood loss can also occur during the procedure itself, since the placenta is separated from the uterine wall too slowly during a D&C. This can require a blood transfusion.

- A cut or torn cervix can occur when the doctor grabs the cervix with the tenaculum or inserts the curette into the uterus. This may lead to a weakened cervix - making carrying a future child to term difficult.

- Cervical damage can also occur with the excessive dilating required for a D&C, also leading to a weakened cervix. The cervix needs to be dilated much less if having a vacuum aspiration.

- The uterus may be perforated (punctured) during the abortion when the doctor presses the curette against the walls of the uterus, causing heavy abdominal bleeding and/or infection. You may require surgery to repair the puncture, and rarely you may need a hysterectomy (removal of the uterus) to stop the bleeding. The risk of this happening with a D&C abortion is considerably higher than with a vacuum aspiration, since the pregnant uterus is extremely soft and easy to pierce with the sharp curette.

- Scarring of the uterus may occur, resulting in "Asherman's Syndrome." This scarring can occur as the doctor scrapes the curette against the walls of the uterus and can cause future fertility problems.

- An incomplete abortion, where the pregnancy has been terminated but the baby or other tissue does not get expelled, can occur in an additional 1% of cases, especially those done before 6 weeks since only 50-60% of the uterine wall is scraped during a D&C. This causes severe cramping and excessive bleeding that continues for over a week following the abortion.

- Emotional or psychological distress can occur after the abortion, including depression, guilt, regret, anger, and/or sleep disturbance.

- Maternal death occurs in a reported 1 out of every 100,000 abortions (this includes all types of abortion).
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 05:19 am
If that's the number of problems with abortion once it's legal, imagine how bad it is when it is illegal with hacks performing abortion.

The fetus is not a human until it has developed nerves and a brain. Before, that it is just a bunch of cells no more sentient than your own skin. If I abort the "fetus" at the right stage, the blastocyst stage, take the stem cells and put one half in another blastocyst and the other half in another, I end up creating two human beings from the one.

What does this mean?

What about chimeras, those people who are formed from the fusion of two different eggs? Has one of the human beings died? Is this person really two human beings?

What about these people? Are they two people in one with two souls in one body?

Both all or nothing approaches are ridiculous. You cannot have no abortion at all and you cannot have abortion for all stages of pregnancy.
0 Replies
 
 

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