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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

 
 
Thalion
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 09:00 am
timberlandko, I was addressing maporsche.

My points concern mainly the New Testament, rather than the "Abrahamic proposition."
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 09:30 am
timberlandko wrote:
Neo, I gotta say your point amounts to rationalization, not justification. Again we come to nothing more than internal reference. I'll point out as well that the passage you quote amounts to saying explicitly that the Abrahamic proposition is intended for only those gullible enough to fall for it.
You are quite right, timber, which is why I value your posts. What is needed are more 'external' proofs.

Here is one often overlooked: Many question the writings of Isaiah, contending they must have been written after the fact. But how could Isaiah have known that such a great city as Babylon would never be rebuilt? Yet we read in Isaiah chapter 13:

17 "Here I am arousing against them the Medes, who account silver itself as nothing and who, as respects gold, take no delight in it. 18 And [their] bows will dash even young men to pieces. And the fruitage of the belly they will not pity; for sons their eye will not feel sorry. 19 And Babylon, the decoration of kingdoms, the beauty of the pride of the Chal·de´ans, must become as when God overthrew Sod´om and Go·mor´rah. 20 She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let [their flocks] lie down there. 21 And there the haunters of waterless regions will certainly lie down, and their houses must be filled with eagle owls. And there the ostriches must reside, and goat-shaped demons themselves will go skipping about there. 22 And jackals must howl in her dwelling towers, and the big snake will be in the palaces of exquisite delight. And the season for her is near to come, and her days themselves will not be postponed."

I realize this single example cannot be taken as proof of anything. But there are others.

It is also most interesting that this great city is mentioned symbolically in the book of Revelation as a religious entity.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 10:48 am
Well, the history and archaeology with which I am familiar holds that following its destruction in 689BCE, Babylon was rebuilt, achieving it greates size, glory and splendor during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II, 605 to 538 BCE. It remained a thriving metropolis and center of influence though 330 BCE, at which time Alexander the Great captured the then-still-magnificent-rich-and-powerful city (along with considerable treasure among which was enumerated and accounted gold, silver, jewels, incense, perfumes, precious woods, abd assorted works of art) intending to make it the capital of his empire.

However, following Alexander's death not long thereafter, among things associated with the matter of contesting his succession was the founding of the city of Seleucia, and the establishment there of the captial of the eponymous Seleucid Empire. With transfer of administrative and key commercial functions to Seleucia, Babylon's population and fortunes withered in favor of the new capital, and as time passed, other factors further reduced the status of the city, but the city remained inhabited to some small extent for nearly another millenium, finally being abandonded in the 7th century of the current era. I don't see any corroboration of Isaiah there.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 11:01 am
timberlandko wrote:
Well, the history and archaeology with which I am familiar holds that following its destruction in 689BCE, Babylon was rebuilt, achieving it greates size, glory and splendor during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II, 605 to 538 BCE. It remained a thriving metropolis and center of influence though 330 BCE, at which time Alexander the Great captured the then-still-magnificent-rich-and-powerful city (along with considerable treasure among which was enumerated and accounted gold, silver, jewels, incense, perfumes, precious woods, abd assorted works of art) intending to make it the capital of his empire.

However, following Alexander's death not long thereafter, among things associated with the matter of contesting his succession was the founding of the city of Seleucia, and the establishment there of the captial of the eponymous Seleucid Empire. With transfer of administrative and key commercial functions to Seleucia, Babylon's population and fortunes withered in favor of the new capital, and as time passed, other factors further reduced the status of the city, but the city remained inhabited for nearly another millenium, finally being abandonded in the 7th century of the current era. I don't see any corroboration of Isaiah there.
Really!?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 11:03 am
Yeah, really.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 11:04 am
Oh yeah!?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 11:06 am
Laughing - Look it up Laughing
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 11:06 am
Is Babylon inhabited, or not?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 11:12 am
It is not a functioning, inhabited city at this time, but what has its millenium-plus gradual decline following its Alexandrian conquest - decline, not destruction - as occaisioned by transfer of its governmental and commercial functions to another city, got to do with any "validation" of Isaiah?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 11:17 am
Babylon was never the power it was before the arrival of Cyrus; it suffered gradual decline and eventual abandonment. How is this not a validation of Isaiah?

Who woulda thunk this could happen? http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/graduated.gif
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 11:38 am
Neo, I'm afraid that's too much of a stretch to convince me ... barely qualiies as coincidence in my book. Sure, wait long enough, and damned near any city will fade, any empire will fall, any tyrant will die. On some days it will rain in some places, and on other days it will rain in other places. Some years will be warmer, some cooler. Some foplks will have good fortune, others won't. None of that is proof of anything other than that life gores on, regardless whether, by whom, in what fashion, or even if at all, any of it was predicted. There is no demonstrable causal connection relating such events to "prophecies" of their occurrence.

I really am amazed at the lengths folks - not just religionists - will go to assert that this that or another "prophecy has been fulfilled" by this, that, or the other event or circumstance. There are plenty of "Prohecies" that have not proved out, period - the world, for instance, has not once ended on the prophesied date, despite the many prophecies specifically setting the calendar for the event.

An occasional coincidence proves nothing, and stretching tto portray unrelated or even unverified events or circumstances as combining in some wierd way to "prove" a prophecy is just plain silly.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 12:21 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

Well, moron, he also could have not put them in the position he did....or he could have simply forgiven them for a fairly benign act....or he could have forgiven them because they did not even know there was such a thing as disobedience....and they did not know the difference between good and evil. Or he could have punished them and not the entire goddam rest of mankind.
Frank; You have so many words in your post, a moron the likes of me can hardly keep up. What amazes me is how I, a complete dullard, can possibly understand something that escapes your magnificent intellect:

Adam and Eve were created as perfect moral agents. Their perfect consciences prevented them from stealing, for example, or committing any other sins that may have come into their minds. There was only one sin they could commit. Their eating of the fruit was more than just a dietary indiscretion. It represented their choice to decide for themselves what was good and what was bad.

These folks were mentally perfect, Frank. I know this may come as a surprise both to you and to the readers of this thread, but they were even smarter than you.

They knew what they were doing. Like you, Satan, another smart fellow, believed that God would have to either forgive them or execute them on the spot. Either course would have meant God would have to abandon his purpose. God's name, Jehovah, means 'he who causes to become'. So, this rebellion was more than just a speed bump in history. It has called into question God's right to be God.

Apparently, up until now, you are in agreement with the naysayers.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 12:38 pm
"Their eating of the fruit was more than just a dietary indiscretion." This must be the understatement of all time Smile
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 12:40 pm
"Adam and Eve were created as perfect moral agents. Their perfect consciences prevented them from stealing, for example, or committing any other sins that may have come into their minds."

In other words, they didn't have "free will."
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 12:43 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Neo, I'm afraid that's too much of a stretch to convince me ... barely qualiies as coincidence in my book. Sure, wait long enough, and damned near any city will fade, any empire will fall, any tyrant will die. On some days it will rain in some places, and on other days it will rain in other places. Some years will be warmer, some cooler. Some foplks will have good fortune, others won't. None of that is proof of anything other than that life gores on, regardless whether, by whom, in what fashion, or even if at all, any of it was predicted. There is no demonstrable causal connection relating such events to "prophecies" of their occurrence.

I really am amazed at the lengths folks - not just religionists - will go to assert that this that or another "prophecy has been fulfilled" by this, that, or the other event or circumstance. There are plenty of "Prohecies" that have not proved out, period - the world, for instance, has not once ended on the prophesied date, despite the many prophecies specifically setting the calendar for the event.

An occasional coincidence proves nothing, and stretching tto portray unrelated or even unverified events or circumstances as combining in some wierd way to "prove" a prophecy is just plain silly.
I did qualify my post with the notation that, in and of itself, it could not prove anything. I also said there were more.

I personally believe we are living in the time of God's judgement. That being said, I am well aware of the countless dates proffered in the past by well meaning believers (and not a few charlatans). When suffering, as many do, it is tempting to forget that Jesus himself did not know when that time would come. I try to life my life in anticipation of it, knowing I really have nothing to lose. Keeping the faith is not as difficult as many would have us believe and brings with it a certain stability and freedom not universally available in the world. I don't mean to imply that a good life is not possible without it. But, well thought out belief certainly helps.

I was once comfortable in my disbelief until I found out the things I could not believe were things the scriptures did not contain.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 12:46 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Adam and Eve were created as perfect moral agents. Their perfect consciences prevented them from stealing, for example, or committing any other sins that may have come into their minds."

In other words, they didn't have "free will."
And the rest of my post went on to say "there was only one sin they could commit." Why did you leave that out?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 12:48 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
"Their eating of the fruit was more than just a dietary indiscretion." This must be the understatement of all time Smile
Can you imagine the sound of the burp? Laughing
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Thalion
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 01:27 pm
neologist - I'll again point out what has been mentioned: Adam and Eve could not have had knowledge of good and evil before they ate from the tree that granted that knowledge... making them not morally perfect.

Treat Eden as man's revelation of conscience whereby he is forced to deal the moral consequences of right from wrong once he has learned them, but do not insist that this actually occured. If you're going to play logic games with this story, you realize that ironically Adam and Eve could not have commited an evil before they knew what evil was, making them not responsible for their actions prior to eatting from the tree -- the act of eatting from the tree reflected its own immorality on itself as both the source of sin and the object of action regarding which that sin was committed. Thus, eatting from the tree was not in-of-itself an evil, but only the revelation of man to what is evil. Man is condemned to be free, the ejection from the idyllic Eden marking the transformation of man from his innocence into maturity - a Fall into the knowledge of evil in reality out of a pure life, though it had been pure only because of ignorance.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 01:38 pm
Thalion, Excellent point; but logic is a loose canon of religion. They use historical incidence to show how the bible predicted future events, but they ignore the fact that any comic book could predict future events that will eventually transpire - given enough time and interpretations.
0 Replies
 
SN95
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 02:10 pm
neologist wrote:
I personally believe we are living in the time of God's judgement. That being said, I am well aware of the countless dates proffered in the past by well meaning believers (and not a few charlatans). When suffering, as many do, it is tempting to forget that Jesus himself did not know when that time would come.


Oh?

Luke 21:12-36 "I tell you truly, that there are some of those standing right here who will never taste death before they see the kingdom of God. And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on earth an anxious mass of people in confusion over the roar of the sea and the tides, with people dying of fear and apprehension about what's coming over the world. Yes, the powers of heaven will be shaken. And then the will see the Son of Man on a cloud with power and great glory. When these things start to happen, look up and raise your heads, because your redemption is approaching. When you see these tings happening, you know the kingdom of God is close. I assure you that this generation will not pass away till it all happens."

I don't know about you but to me that's a fairly specific timeline on when all of this is supposed to happen. Not only is a specific time frame given, but a very specific account of exactly what is supposed to happen is given. So where exactly in the bible does it say Jesus "does not know" when this will happen. And if it is in there wouldn't that be contradictory to what he is saying here?
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