Which Religion is the One True Religion?

cicerone imposter wrote:

Satan was a angel, but he's the only angel that had free will?

No, ALL angels had/have free will. Satan and a number of angels rebelled against God. These angels cannot be redeemed like man. They were created perfect and with full knowledge of God. Therefore, they cannot return to the Creator.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Frank,

The reason why the devil still rages on even though we have won the war (through Christ) is because God NEVER possesses... not you, not I, not Jesus Christ, not the devil, not anyone...

It is we who must possess the holy spirit and that sets us above the power of the devil...

As Christians we do not fight the devil we wrestle with the devil in our minds...

God does not overstep our free will even though you seem to have problems with the concept of free will it still can and does exist.

Yet the devil still possesses people...
even Christians... He does not posses Christians in their spirit but in their minds... through addictions. habit patterns and wrong teaching... to name a few...

God does not kill the devil because he would overstep his own laws of free will... The devil will eventually kill himself... It was Adam and Even that put the devil in power and it took another human Jesus Christ to expose the devil's snare and to empower us to defeat the devil in our minds. If God over stepped even one of his own laws the entire creation would crumble and fall into complete ruin...

Also when we see spiritual leaders (on both sides) in our world that "may" be ignorant of the truth it is more of a sadness that that is the state of the world today and they need to be prayed for...

There is too much fault that people find and not enough praise... It takes a big person to admit this to themselves and make a change of attitude..

Rex...

...prepare yourself...

...I am going to tell you something that is going to upset you mightily...

...there is no Santa Claus.

Also...there is no Easter Bunny.

And....worst of all...there is no Tooth Fairy.

Grow up!

Do you have scientific proof of that, Frank? Laughing

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cicerone imposter wrote:

BTW, is the snake that told adam and eve to eat the apple the devil or is it because adam and eve didn't know what sin was all about? If god created satan, and satan was the cause of adam and eve's fall from grace, why are all man-kind punished for their sin?

CI

I would suggest that you start by reading Genesis and also Revelations. Then ask your question.

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real life wrote:

Pauligirl wrote:
real life wrote:
Pauligirl wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
BTW, is the snake that told adam and eve to eat the apple the devil or is it because adam and eve didn't know what sin was all about? If god created satan, and satan was the cause of adam and eve's fall from grace, why are all man-kind punished for their sin?

Why did god put the tree there in the first place, when he knew they would eat the fruit? . Why in the world did god have to ask " Where are you?" Where did the omniscience go?

For that matter, why did god create Adam and Eve? Was god lonely? Can a perfect being be lonely?

I think the snake had it right all along.

P

Why do you have children if you know they will do wrong? Have you ever asked your child "What are you doing?" when you knew very well what he was doing?

If I had children, I wouldn't punish them their entire lives for doing something wrong and I certainly wouldn't include their children and their children's children in that punishment. As far as asking, hey, I'm not the one claiming omniscience.

Now, why did god create Adam and Eve? Was god lonely? Can a perfect being be lonely?
P

Would you warn your children if they were about to do something wrong that would have lifelong bad consequences and even affect their children and grandchildren?

The Bible never said God was lonely. God created Adam and Eve for the same reason that people have children today, because they are willing to share life and love with another.

Warn em, yeah. Punish em for forever, no. So, your god's not so perfect. Tell him next time, get a bunny and leave the humans alone.
P

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Don't forget; we are created in his "image." Does he/she have a penis or vigina? Maybe he/she wasn't get'n any, and really felt lonely.

This is getting really childish......

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Morning Star

I sat in preponderance of the WORD and as I looked heavenward in my spirit I saw Jesus descending from the clouds. He took me aside and showed me great wonders in the heavens and the earth...

I saw twelve constellations yet there was a darkness in the heavens that stole the light and glory from two thirds of the stars...

I asked Jesus where one third of the stars in the heavens went? He answered in a voice both strong but gentle, "I shall show unto you a mystery"...

In the space of a moment I was in a place that was more wondrous than any place that could ever be imagined or merely dreamed. The sun shone above the brightness of the sun I had in my lifetime grown familiar with. The heavens gleamed with a brilliance that was perfect and full.
There was no darkness and the heavens were complete. The constellations danced in the heavens and all of the earth bowed down to the spirit of the first creation long before Eden...

I saw in the east a star that shone exceeding that of any star in the sky... It was "the bright and morning star". I stood in total awe of the beauty of this star as the heavens did live and rejoice that this star shone so brightly amongst them. Then Jesus lifted a veil from my eyes and in the distance I could see a star that was above all other stars... It was THE star God... then I realized that the beautiful morning star was only an image, a mere reflection of THE star God...Yet it lacked no beauty but it was only an imitation of God's true radiance...

With this revelation I could sense the heavens beginning to crumble. What once revealed beauty led to blindness of heart. That there could be such satisfaction in treachery and that light could pervert and become darkness. Then like a great cataclysm I saw the bright and morning star draw one third of the stars with it and fall to the earth and then into a dark abyss... till it left a vast void in the heavens and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Then were the heavens and earth made dark in the sight of God. The great light of the heavens was extinguished and the creation of God was left without form.

God then spoke light and the earth reappeared... yet it was somehow divided... and I saw male and female, night and day, good and evil and life and death...

Yet God Gave his creation power over the fallen angel but only on one condition that they not partake of the evil that did tempt them.
But the light that once shone as the morning star blinded Adam and Eve in their hearts and they did follow the serpent onto the darkness seeking their own godliness...

Then I saw Jesus weep as the world was again extinguished of THE star God.

Then Jesus beckoned me to come with him as we moved toward the future...

I saw Jesus nailed to the cross to save the world from sin. I saw the angel of God roll the stone away from the tomb and Jesus arise from the dead...

Jesus carried in one hand the truth of the word and in the other hand he held obedient humility...

Then he said that I could come with him but I would have to leave my earthly body behind.. For Angels do not have bodies as human...
So as I saw my body lay and fall gently to the ground and my spirit leave it I felt a liberation as I flew with my savior through the blue skies of pure holiness.

Jesus spoke and said where we go mere mortals fear to tread. I was not afraid because I knew the spirit of my lord and the power of his might.

I felt myself falling at an accelerated rate that I was barley able to follow. Then there was fire and heat that could melt the elements and evil that turned this dream into a hideous nightmare... Yet, I was still comforted by my lord and savior.

I heard swords clashing and I could see Lucifer as the great beast of the bottomless pit and all of his minions beset round about my lord yet they could not prevail. Jesus did triumph over the beast and made a show of the devil's humiliation and took of the spoils of the war so that hell was only a remnant of its former glory. Hell was now only an illusion dreamed in the sickness of the human soul.

Then Jesus brought me back to my body that had been left upon the earth. I saw the world and it was hungering and thrusting for liberation from darkness. This spirit that once belonged to Lucifer was now that of the Christ. I looked to the morning and saw my Jesus as the star that once stood in the heavens fair so long ago...

From glory to glory... Then I saw Jesus give gifts unto the peoples of the earth that believed upon his righteousness. Then one third of the heavens came down and dwelt upon the earth. Jesus spoke and said fulfill the word of THE star God.

Peace to the nations and look toward the heavens for my coming when the end shall be as the beginning... alpha and omega...

Open your eyes ye children of the light and arise from thy breathless sleep...

RexRed

...this one is for you CI

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timberlandko wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
And you can prove that, of course!

No, I cannot provide irrevocable proof. Just as you cannot prove otherwise. Fact is, it cannot be proved either way.

Ahhhh, yes, Grasshopper ... but much evidence favors the negative while scant to none favors the affirmative. Whether or not the issue ever may be proven, it so far has not been proven, though such proof as is available - actual, academically, scientifically valid proof - mitigates against the religionist proposition.

Too bad you couldn't answer my earlier question about these so called "studies" of prayer.

The study you had cited states that Jews, Muslims , Buddhists and Christians were all involved.

I asked if the instructions for prayer found in the New and Old Testaments were followed during this study.

You did not answer because to do so would expose these sham "studies" for what they are.

It is obvious that NO common instructions on how or what to pray were given or followed.

What was defined as "prayer" by the study's organizers? There was NO definition.

Then tell us, Timber, how does one profess to conduct a study with no common definition of terms, no way or effort to find IF what is being studied from one participant to the next even remotely resembles each other?

If anyone presented to you a "study" purporting to be of the scientific variety, of say, aspirin--- would you not make sure that what was referred to as "aspirin" and given to one subject was the same as what is referred to as "aspirin" and given to or withheld from other participants?

These sham "studies" of prayer are a joke, and you of all people should know it. You embarrass yourself greatly by calling this kind of nonsense "evidence" and "scientifically valid proof".

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So it was that the first of the questing folk came to be upon the land. They used the knowledge that Rama has passed and came to more of their own. The digging and smelting of the earth's gifts, the working of wood into weapons to make the gathering of food more plentiful. The beginning of the learning of the way of animals and their young, not to merely hunt, but to capture and breed. The understanding of the seasons and the cycles of growing things.

There was one among them who would come to be known as Otzi of the copper axe. Otzi was not content with the ways of his people. He had come late to them, having more of the ways of Rama, and being restless of spirit, not able to put the essence of the hunter behind him. He stayed with his people as long as he could, but he knew not contentment and was a seeker.

It was warm and pleasant in the valley and for a time Otzi was able to bide there with his mate. He had learned the ways of the shaman, the healing wisdom from the elders of his tribe, the magician, for he learned how to use the knowledge, and he was a warrior in spirit and protected his people. He knew the secrets of metal from the ground. He learned of the way of the skin markings to stop the pain that came with age and was held in great esteem with his people. So it was that Otzi was troubled when the talk of gods began.

It had started as a child's game. A simple question asked that could not be answered. "Otzi, what makes the great light flash in the sky and the loud noise before the rain?" Otzi had to answer with the truth, for that was his way. " I do not know, my son." Which brought forth another question. "Otzi, what causes the rain?" Otzi had to answer with the truth again. " I do not know, my son."

The questioning child went to an elder of the tribe who was jealous of the knowledge of Otzi, and once again asked his questions. That elder did not know the way of truth and the words " I do not know" had never crossed his tongue. He looked upon the youth and saw a chance to be wise and usurp the authority of Otzi. "It is a god, my son. One who is greater than ourselves and throws the lightening from cloud to cloud for amusement.

The child, being a child had more questions. "What makes the sun show its face every morning, and the seasons turn? And the answer to all the questions was "god". And the child, with the innocent and ignorance of a child said "should we thank him?" And it came to the elder like that flash of light from the sky, that, yes, the god should be thanked, and that the elder would be the only one to possess the knowledge of the ritual of the god thanking. And the elder saw this as a good thing.

And so it was that the elder began to speak of the god and all the things that the god did for the tribe. The warmth of the growing season, the water from the sky, the birth of food animals.

And when the tribe asked, well, why does it get cold and why do some of the animals die, the elder said it is because we have not thanked the god but if we should thank him enough, then he will be pleased with us. And the idea was large and mysterious and the tribe took it as a water beast takes a hook and is pulled in for a feast. And the tribe asked how to please the god. And the elder spoke and told them of sacrifice. Bring a part of your grain and a food animal and I will give to the god and it will please him mightily and he will smile upon us. And the tribe did this and all were pleased. Except Otzi.

Wise in the ways of man was Otzi, and able to recognize falsehood and greed. He alone knew that the elder was growing fat on the sacrifice of the tribe and that the things the elder ascribed to god was the workings of nature, who had no need of sacrifice. Things are as they are. And so Otzi spoke against the elder to the tribe. But the tribe was now afraid of angering the god and would not listen to the wise words. And as the sun follows a path in the sky, so do the seasons. And the air grew strange and chill once again. And the elder spoke and said that the god was displeased and that Otzi must leave. And the tribe said yes, he must leave that god will smile upon us again.

And so it was that Otzi took his copper axe and his grass cape and left the tribe and dwelt apart and alone. But the cold came anyway and the tribe was hungry because they has given all the grain and animals to the god to hold back the turn of the seasons. And so it was that they began to talk among themselves. Why is the elder the only one of us with meat still upon his bones? Why is his child the only one that does not cry with hunger? Have we been foolish? And so they sent for Otzi to return. And in his time he did return and dealt with the elder with his copper axe. But the tribe was shamed. The presence of Otzi was a constant reminder of their foolishness and they could not bear to have him near. And Otzi understood, being a wise man. He was content with the knowledge that he had done that which had to be done for the tribe.

So once again, Otzi took his leave of the tribe. But this time of leaving was one of joy for Otzi for now he could quench his restless spirit and go to the mountains to seek and spread knowledge of the sage, the magician and the warrior. . And so he walked in the high road and to his destiny. He learned much on his journey, the making of bows from evergreen yew trunk, the working of flint into arrowheads, the secret of keeping fire alive, but he was old and tired before it was over, and it grew very cold in the mountain pass. Otzi did not know that when he lay down to sleep, he would not rise again from that strange chill, but that the cold would take him and the creeping ice would make him part of the mountain. It would take five millennia before Otzi would be able to spread his knowledge again, but it was a good sleep for the work of the ages.

So are religions born.
P

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"No, ALL angels had/have free will. Satan and a number of angels rebelled against God. These angels cannot be redeemed like man. They were created perfect and with full knowledge of God."

Why didn't god create man perfect like the angels?

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Setanta wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Remember the crusades? We would all be part of the Persian empire if it was not for brave "Christians" that died to push back their swords...

This is so delusional, i hardly know where to begin. The Persians were not involved in the Crusades. Chiefly the "brave christians" (Ahhhahahahahahahahaha) fought Seljuk Turks and Kurds, with a few Arabs and Egyptian Mameluks thrown in (the latter were usually Caucasian tribesmen though, "Mameluk" means "owned" in the Turkic language of the day--they were military slaves, and the savage Caucasian tribesmen were the preferred source). The great defense agaist the "Franj" (Arabic) or "Ferengi" (Turkic) as the crusaders were known, was mounted first by Ayyub, a Kurd, and then his nephew, Yusuf (Joseph), known as Salah'al-Din, or Saladin to the French. The Persian Empire had basically ceased to exist when the son-in-law of the Prophet, Ali, the first Imam of the Shi'ites, had invaded four centuries earlier and fought the original "mother of all battles."

You butcher history worse than science and religion, although one would hardly think it possible. You really should keep your mouth shut when you don't know what the hell you're talking about. But then, we'd never hear from you, would we.

Sometime, go to google and type in "first crusade+cannibalism"--it's an eye-opener. It's all about your "brave christians" (Ahhhhhhahahahahahahahahahaha).

You crack me up . . .

You had this one coming, Rex. How many times have I told you to keep your feet on the ground?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

"No, ALL angels had/have free will. Satan and a number of angels rebelled against God. These angels cannot be redeemed like man. They were created perfect and with full knowledge of God."

Why didn't god create man perfect like the angels?

Man was created perfect. You've been given the answer over and over again. You just don't believe it.

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Why did god discriminate against humans? He created that damn tree with the apple on it, because he knew adam and eve would eat it. He created man and the apple tree knowing full well man would eat that apple. He then sends his god to earth and sacrifices him for a few hours to forgive all of man's sins. If god is brought back to life, that's not a sacrifice. Ask Ms Sheehan; she knows sacrifice.

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neologist wrote:

Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Remember the crusades? We would all be part of the Persian empire if it was not for brave "Christians" that died to push back their swords...

This is so delusional, i hardly know where to begin. The Persians were not involved in the Crusades. Chiefly the "brave christians" (Ahhhahahahahahahahaha) fought Seljuk Turks and Kurds, with a few Arabs and Egyptian Mameluks thrown in (the latter were usually Caucasian tribesmen though, "Mameluk" means "owned" in the Turkic language of the day--they were military slaves, and the savage Caucasian tribesmen were the preferred source). The great defense agaist the "Franj" (Arabic) or "Ferengi" (Turkic) as the crusaders were known, was mounted first by Ayyub, a Kurd, and then his nephew, Yusuf (Joseph), known as Salah'al-Din, or Saladin to the French. The Persian Empire had basically ceased to exist when the son-in-law of the Prophet, Ali, the first Imam of the Shi'ites, had invaded four centuries earlier and fought the original "mother of all battles."

You butcher history worse than science and religion, although one would hardly think it possible. You really should keep your mouth shut when you don't know what the hell you're talking about. But then, we'd never hear from you, would we.

Sometime, go to google and type in "first crusade+cannibalism"--it's an eye-opener. It's all about your "brave christians" (Ahhhhhhahahahahahahahahahaha).

You crack me up . . .
You had this one coming, Rex. How many times have I told you to keep your feet on the ground?

Neo are you taunting me? I highly advise against attempting to embarrass me because you can become a target... I will not refrain from jabbing you in retaliation if you find it necessary to slam me...

Also sorry I missed your post Set... sort of...

I do not pretend to be a Muslim scholar so I welcome any corrections you may have if I make an error in that regard...

I used the word "Persians" in a general way to avoid the word Arab out of consideration. Yet it was Christians under Charlemagne that drove the "Arabs" out of Europe and much more... So I don't really know your point Set..

Also there has been cannibalism in many wars of the past... big deal...

That is no reflection on Christians or the Bible. It was either eat the enemy or not live to fight another day... is that so hard to fathom?
There was cannibalism in the first and second world wars too? So what? I don't need to google nothing in that particular regard? Canned food was not invented until Napoleons time...

I am interested in knowing more about the crusades and if you can enlighten us in that subject with out jabbing Christians then let's hear it...

Anyway and you show me where in the Bible it directs Christians to eat human flesh?

Do you know where the word cannibal comes from Set?

Also...
Beyond the legends of Charlemagne lies a biography worthy of the tales. To the medieval mind, only King Arthur vied with Charlemagne as the finest example of what a Christian king could be. Kind, yet fiercely defensive of his family and Empire, there is much to admire. His exploits spawned both histories and romances, like all good legends it stood firmly rooted in history. The biography offered here was published in Will Durant's History of Civilization, but a small part of an encyclopedic historical survey. I include it here in the KCT resources because it might prove useful and inspiration to those seeking a basic introduction to this most famous of medieval kings.

http://www.chronique.com/Library/MedHistory/charlemagne.htm

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Why did god discriminate against humans? He created that damn tree with the apple on it, because he knew adam and eve would eat it. He created man and the apple tree knowing full well man would eat that apple. He then sends his god to earth and sacrifices him for a few hours to forgive all of man's sins. If god is brought back to life, that's not a sacrifice. Ask Ms Sheehan; she knows sacrifice.

You questions are good CI and they will be answered in time if your heart is in the right place...

Leave Sheehan out of this... God can heal her heart and sorrows too if she can humble herself...

All in good time...

God knew they (Adam and Eve) would eat of the tree but he did not leave them without hope...and redemption.

After the fall God worked with Adam and Eve to partly justify their wrong doings and he made concessions for them to bring them back into his graces...

We may see them in paradise again someday...

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Intrepid wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Don't forget; we are created in his "image." Does he/she have a penis or vigina? Maybe he/she wasn't get'n any, and really felt lonely.

This is getting really childish......

The entire myth is childish. The fact that grown men and women actually accept this as truth...whether literal or figurative...is childish.

Very, very childish.

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Pauligirl wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
BTW, is the snake that told adam and eve to eat the apple the devil or is it because adam and eve didn't know what sin was all about? If god created satan, and satan was the cause of adam and eve's fall from grace, why are all man-kind punished for their sin?

Why did god put the tree there in the first place, when he knew they would eat the fruit? . Why in the world did god have to ask " Where are you?" Where did the omniscience go?

For that matter, why did god create Adam and Eve? Was god lonely? Can a perfect being be lonely?

I think the snake had it right all along.

P

It was a sting.

Here is my guess about what happened:

The ancient people who invented this god...and who were stuck for an answer to questions about why there is so much ugliness and inhumity in the world...had to come up with some kind of answer. And for certain, the answer could not include a god who messed up.

So...the put together this story...which they considered as absolving their god of any responsibility...and placed it on humans so that they could suggest the god, in fairness, had to punish humans and put them into the human predicament.

The story has about as much validity as the sun being carried across the sky in a chariot.

I suspect future generations will look at these stories and treat them just like we treat the "sun/chariot/sky" stuff. They will probably argue among themselves if anyone truly thought this nonsense was true.

Unfortunately for us...there are people who buy into it.

How anyone can accept that a god put people into such unnecessary temptation...saw to it that the greatest tempter of all times was there with them to see that they did succumb to temptation...and then withheld from them the knowledge of what is right and wrong...

...and then punished them and all humanity for what a five year old could have told the god would happen...

...how anyone can accept all that and still think that the god is wonderful, kind, compassionate, and humanity loving...

...is beyond comprehension.

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RexRed wrote:

I used the word "Persians" in a general way to avoid the word Arab out of consideration. Yet it was Christians under Charlemagne that drove the "Arabs" out of Europe and much more... So I don't really know your point Set..

The "Arabs" were not driven out of Europe. It seems that you refer to the battle of Tours. Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer) routed Muslims who had crossed the mountains from Andalusia (the Iberian penninsula) near Tours in 732 CE. Charlemagne was born in 742 CE. Martel's victory did not drive the Muslims from Europe. They took and held Andalusia, what is now southern Spain, for more than seven hundred years. My point ought to have been obvious. You attempt to underpin feeble arguments by appeals to that of which you know nothing.

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Also there has been cannibalism in many wars of the past... big deal...

It's a big deal when you try to make the crusaders out to be knights in shining armor.

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That is no reflection on Christians or the Bible. It was either eat the enemy or not live to fight another day... is that so hard to fathom?

This is patently untrue. We have a record of the event because Frankish monks who accompanied the soldiers wrote an account. One of the points they made was that the crusaders did not need to eat their captives.

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There was cannibalism in the first and second world wars too? So what?

You have some evidence for that silliness?

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I don't need to google nothing in that particular regard? Canned food was not invented until Napoleons time...

Which means that you suggest that prior to 1795 armies could not campaign because they lacked canned food? If you had ever bothered to educate yourself, you might have read the Gallic Wars by Iulius Caesar, in which he is very particular to point out how he secured a supply of grain before each campaign. Again, you do nothing but point up your ignorance.

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I am interested in knowing more about the crusades and if you can enlighten us in that subject with out jabbing Christians then let's hear it...

I wasn't jabbing christians, i was pointing out the silliness of your statement suggesting heroic christians saved us from the bad old Persians, who, once again, were not involved in the Crusades. The best recent short work on the crusades is The Crusades through Arab Eyes, Amin Maloof. He is a Lebanese christian, so you needn't fear that your mind will be polluted in the reading.

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Anyway and you show me where in the Bible it directs Christians to eat human flesh?

I've made no such contention. This is, however, evidence of your inability to consider subjects without constant resort to post hoc fallacies.

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Do you know where the word cannibal comes from Set?

Yes--which is not germane to a discussion of whether or not brave christians (Ahhhahahahahahahahahaha) saved us from the swords of the Persians (hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha).

Quote:

Also...
Beyond the legends of Charlemagne lies a biography worthy of the tales. To the medieval mind, only King Arthur vied with Charlemagne as the finest example of what a Christian king could be. Kind, yet fiercely defensive of his family and Empire, there is much to admire. His exploits spawned both histories and romances, like all good legends it stood firmly rooted in history. The biography offered here was published in Will Durant's History of Civilization, but a small part of an encyclopedic historical survey. I include it here in the KCT resources because it might prove useful and inspiration to those seeking a basic introduction to this most famous of medieval kings.

http://www.chronique.com/Library/MedHistory/charlemagne.htm

Einhard and Nottker are the only two contemporary sources for a life of Charlemagne. Einhard was trained as a cleric in Charlemagne's court. Nottker was born just before Charlemagne's death, and his story is full of flying Bishops and other nonsense, the most nonsensical parts being the self-abasement of Charlemagne before the Bishops. The evidence is very good that Charlemagne had no interest in being a "Holy Roman Emperor," and that he sharply resented the effort to make him a "christian soldier" in the employ of the Bishops. I've read Einhard and Nottker, and quite a lot of other history of the period. When you've done the same, and not just run off to the first christian-authorized web reference you could find for Charlemagne, i'll be happy to discuss the subject with you.

None of which will be pertinent, however, as Charlemagne never participated in any crusades, and he didn't drive the "Arabs" from Europe.

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RexRed wrote:

Quote:

Anyway and you show me where in the Bible it directs Christians to eat human flesh?

Well...actually...there is a passage in the Bible which seems to allow followers of the god Jesus worshipped to eat the flesh of fellow humans. In fact, is seems to allow then to eat the flesh of relatives. Take a look at Deuteronomy 28:52ff.

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They will besiege you in each of your communities, until the great, unscalable walls you trust in come tumbling down all over your land. They will so besiege you in every community throughout the land which the LORD, your God, has given you,
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that in the distress of the siege to which your enemy subjects you, you will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your own sons and daughters whom the LORD, your God, has given you.
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The most refined and fastidious man among you will begrudge his brother and his beloved wife and his surviving children,
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any share in the flesh of his children that he himself is using for food when nothing else is left him in the straits of the siege to which your enemy will subject you in all your communities.
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The most refined and delicate woman among you, so delicate and refined that she would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground, will begrudge her beloved husband and her son and daughter
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the afterbirth that issues from her womb and the infant she brings forth when she secretly uses them for food for want of anything else, in the straits of the siege to which your enemy will subject you in your communities.
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"If you are not careful to observe every word of the law which is written in this book, and to revere the glorious and awesome name of the LORD, your God,
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he will smite you and your descendants with severe and constant blows, malignant and lasting maladies.
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real life wrote:

Too bad you couldn't answer my earlier question about these so called "studies" of prayer.

The study you had cited states that Jews, Muslims , Buddhists and Christians were all involved.

I asked if the instructions for prayer found in the New and Old Testaments were followed during this study.

You did not answer because to do so would expose these sham "studies" for what they are.

It is obvious that NO common instructions on how or what to pray were given or followed.

What was defined as "prayer" by the study's organizers? There was NO definition.

Then tell us, Timber, how does one profess to conduct a study with no common definition of terms, no way or effort to find IF what is being studied from one participant to the next even remotely resembles each other?

If anyone presented to you a "study" purporting to be of the scientific variety, of say, aspirin--- would you not make sure that what was referred to as "aspirin" and given to one subject was the same as what is referred to as "aspirin" and given to or withheld from other participants?

These sham "studies" of prayer are a joke, and you of all people should know it. You embarrass yourself greatly by calling this kind of nonsense "evidence" and "scientifically valid proof".

Don't even try the dodge "It wasn't proper Christian prayer".
You mount a criticism while in ignorance of that which you criticize. Read the studies themselves, not the religionist commentaries relevant to them, and you'll find your assumption unwarranted. Apart from that, it is immensely amusing to observe the nonsensical spin used by religionists in their frantic attempts to deny the evidence gathered indicates what the evidence gathered indicates. There simply is no objective, independent, rational, scientific, academic, supportable case to be made for the religionist proposition.

Now, on to another mirth-maker - many of those hewing to the already convincingly debunked Theory of Christianity have of late in this discussion averred that man and angels were created "Perfect" - now, in that "Perfect" entails "Without flaw", and that according to the Abrahamic mythopaeia, some angels "fell from grace" by their own voluntary actions, and the proto-mythical Adam and Eve voluntarily sinned, thus in both instances, evidencing flaw and failure, there is a real problem with that "Perfect" creation deal. "Free will" explains it away? Poppycock - if perfection is perfection, it is without flaw, and thereby insucceptable to failure on account of flaw.

Can't have it both ways - perfection is an absolute. Either the putative angels and the putative Adam and Eve were not perfect, or the stories attendent upon their respective falls are pure, and wholly illogical, non-sequiturial, inconsistent mythology; either way, the entire background concept cancels itself.

Unless, of course, "God acts in mysterious ways" - which is itself nothing short of the ultimate dodge - an absurdity in support of a construct of absurdities.

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