Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 11:49 pm
Btw, Bernie is the first Jew to win an election contest for president. Very happy that barrier has been broken!
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/bernie-sanders-judaism-primary_us_56ba9c23e4b08ffac1233818
Here's a nice bunch of facts.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/new-hampshire-exit-poll-results-how-bernie-sanders-won
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 12:23 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I understand the desirability of soft power, but if we don't have it because of the way the world reacts to our next president, then we have no choice but to live without it.


We don't yet have our next president and we are speaking about the desirability of the candidates. I was saying that Trump is not desirable as a president due to his inability to stop running his mouth and picking fights.

Quote:
If there is any consolation, most of the negative effects of a loss of our soft power will fall on the rest of the world. The mere existence of our hard power will protect US soil even without us using it.


You keep only seeing this in military terms, when most of our global challenges are not military problems. We have plenty to lose if our influence declines.

Quote:
Unless you have some idea for preserving our soft power even with a President Trump. Preserving soft power is well beyond my skillset. I can recognize its desirability, but have no idea how to go about building and/or maintaining it.


He'd have to learn to shut up, but I'm not advocating Trump as a president so I'd personally just go with not electing the buffoon in the first place.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 12:59 am
Incredibly cool tweet from Jeremy Corbyn noting familiar behavior happening across the pond. Wished Bernie luck.

Funny reparte from Americans about Brit support of American Revolutions. How lovely.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 01:51 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
We don't yet have our next president and we are speaking about the desirability of the candidates. I was saying that Trump is not desirable as a president due to his inability to stop running his mouth and picking fights.

I'm speaking with the belief that the Democrats are guaranteed to lose the general election. That leaves the other Republicans to defeat Trump (which I think is unlikely after tonight), or Bloomberg running as an independent (which I haven't thought much about but it seems a long shot).


Robert Gentel wrote:
You keep only seeing this in military terms, when most of our global challenges are not military problems. We have plenty to lose if our influence declines.

Aside from global warming, what non-military challenges face the world?

I suspect that no matter the challenge, any negative impacts will be worse outside the US than inside the US.
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 08:33 am
@Robert Gentel,
"Unbelievably, the man could not deviate from his memorized lines even answering an accusation that he could not deviate from his memorized lines."

When I saw Christie respond to Rubio during the debate, after Rubio (very effectively) crushed Christie on New Jersey's economy under his tenure, I thought that Christie's broadside about Rubio's "Washington drive-by" and his 25 second memorized talking point, was itself a formulaic and desperate attempt to distract from Rubio's concrete and specific criticism with formulaic anti-Establishment "outsider" rhetoric.

Then I saw the post-debate cable news coverage, particularly CNN, which ran endless montages of Rubio repeating the same phrase about Obama "knowing exactly what he was doing", along with commentary praising Christie's remarks as devastating, and reminding viewers that some had in the past suggested that Rubio was "too scripted". Then they would pointedly ask each other if (and how badly) this was going to hurt Rubio.

Without in the least being a Rubio fan, I thought that the controversy was manufactured by the media far more than by the candidate.

All the candidates do this. Donald Trump is probably the worst. The wall, Mexico, China, stupid leaders, etc., etc., over and over again, every speech and every debate, multiple times. Yet the media call him "unscripted" and "spontaneous". Sure. In the same way that barfly regulars are unscripted in repeating the same boasts and complaints, every night.

I am scornful of "news" programs that spend more time telling viewers what to think about something, based on an edited sound-bite, than they do reporting the news.

CNN, FOX, and MSNBC have all developed a marketing model which involves selecting one or two news stories du jour, to the exclusion of everything else going on in the nation and the world, then harping on them, hour after hour and often day after day.

They spend a minute reporting an event, then switch to a panel discussion that lasts 20 minutes; and the information density of these gab-fests is low even by television standards (television being a visual medium). They seem to have a stable of on-call panelists, who often appear despite only a tangential relation to the matter being reported. Then, instead of interviewing the involved party, the news anchor will interview the panel "expert" or "consultant" asking them to speculate, "What do you think X meant by that? Or "What do you think X will do next?" -- instead of just asking X himself! I suppose such "journalism" is cheap to produce.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 11:21 am
@Robert Gentel,
It was unbelievable, but whether or not it completely derails his candidacy remains to be seen. Remember, the man who was "no Jack Kennedy" became VP, and not the prig who delivered that line.

What has me wondering and, frankly, infuriated is why Christie did it. It was, clearly, very effective as a means to wound another candidate but there was no real upside for Christie. His own internal polling had to have predicted he was toast in NH, regardless of how Rubio finished. There was no reason for Christie to believe that he could take 3rd Place from Rubio, and if he wanted to attack someone to gain any advantage, the obvious target was Kasich.

So why did Christie do it and with such relish?

The obvious answer is that he has cut a deal with Trump. Rubio's meltdown benefited Trump far more than it did Christie. It's easy to imagine that Trump would have been inclined to offer the Attorney General position to Christie without the gift of the attack, so a deal for it seems very possible. We'll know if The Round Mound of No-Rebound endorses Trump after he pulls out of the race, as I have to believe he shortly will.

A deal like this is par for the political course, and is one of the reasons people with very little chance of winning run for the nomination. I don't like it because it hurts Rubio and helps Trump, but I can't fault Christie if he has simply played a rough and nasty game well, and to his advantage.

The alternative explanation is a lot more difficult to take: It was personal.

Christie has made a point of going after the candidates who are members of Congress as do-nothing ditherers who are content with arguing about angels and the heads of pins. It's was a predictable line of attack for a governor, but maybe it was more than simply a tactic. He got a lot of criticism for his Sandy related ass-kissing of Obama, from the DC GOP crowd. He's obviously got a thin skin so maybe he's been harboring this and other grudges towards members of Congress in general and Rubio in particular.

Rubio is polished and attractive. Christie is coarse and fat. It could be that simple.

Whatever it was, if it was personal and for any reason other than Rubio led a group of Cuban commandos on a raid which resulted in half of Christie's family being slaughtered, it reveals a very ugly side of the NJ governor; one that could easily have ordered the closing of a bridge, that screwed thousands of his constituents, just to get even with a political opponent.

There is something frightening, but also appealing, about the ferocity of someone who having been set on fire by his nemesis, wraps his arms around his foe so that they may burn together. But this is only appealing if the person the doomed man takes with him is the author of his demise and deserving of his fate. Perhaps Christie blames his lack of success in this race on Rubio, although I don't know why he would. I haven't seen any stories about Rubio dirty tricks being directed at Christie.

There is also something frightening about the depth of rage that might lead someone to try and destroy another person's chances of winning simply because you have lost. Frightening and repulsive.

I'm reminded of the climactic passage in "Moby Dick" when Tashtego nails the sea-bird to the mast and brings it down to hell with him. It made for a stirring scene in the book, but an ugly, despicable one on a debate stage.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 11:23 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Incredibly cool tweet from Jeremy Corbyn...


My hiatus from A2K only lasted a few months. Is it possible that you became a bomb-throwing socialist during this period of time? Smile
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 11:41 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
maybe he's been harboring this and other grudges


at a distance, this is very much the impression I get from Mr. Christie

he's smart, he's got a wicked sharp tongue and he seems to be a bitter grudge holder


I may have that impression as a result of reading bits like this over the years

“The misunderstanding about Christie is that he’s this great Jersey pol because he’s a tough guy. But he’s the most thin-skinned person I’ve ever observed in New Jersey politics. Most guys just shrug it off. He doesn’t. He’s been nothing but a complete prick.”


and


Chris Christie’s traffic scandal: Grudge match on the bridge


yet the vindictive quality of the bridge closures isn’t entirely unconnected to the Christie administration’s overall approach. According to recent news accounts, the governor retaliated against a Rutgers political scientist who served on a redistricting commission; after the scholar voted against the governor’s favored plan, Christie vetoed $169,000 in state money for two programs at Rutgers. A Republican state senator who mildly criticized the state’s response to a 2010 blizzard was disinvited from a press event in his district and later had his seat redistricted away. In other words, Christie’s political aides just took the boss’s brand of hand-to-hand political combat to a worrisome new extreme.

Christie is a much-discussed GOP presidential prospect. Intelligent and blunt, he’s shown a cross-party appeal that looked to be a major asset in the 2016 campaign. Yet the George Washington Bridge episode undercuts the common-sense image that Christie has so carefully cultivated. If common sense means anything, it means not using political grudges as an excuse to keep innocent people stuck in traffic.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 11:52 am
link former A2k poster (tko) recently dropped at FB

http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/10/hillary-earns-more-new-hampshire-delegates-than-sanders-after-loss/

from his comments

Quote:
This, along with the electoral college, are obstacles to a democracy--not features of one.

That's the way the cookie* crumbles!

Filed under things I didn't learn in civics class. Despite the largest win ever in the state, it's most likely that the delegate count will at best make it a draw. This sort of policy was not created by the DNC against Sanders--it has existed since the 1970s in NH. However, it does offer a sore insult to the voters, many of whom struggle with existing feelings of disenfranchisment.

(*democracy)
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 11:56 am
The election campaign will not have Christie to kick around any longer after today. He has other bridges to jam than be wasting time running for pres.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 12:12 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Lash wrote:

Incredibly cool tweet from Jeremy Corbyn...


My hiatus from A2K only lasted a few months. Is it possible that you became a bomb-throwing socialist during this period of time? Smile


Straight out of one of those "body snatcher" movies. It's been surreal.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 12:22 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I believe the answer as to why Christie did this is a lot simpler and answered by blatham a few days ago: Republicans love the alpha male.

I didn't see the debate, but I went to YouTube and got the clip. It seemed to me that Rubio fought back OK on the facts, (I have only sketchy knowledge of those, but I do remember that New Jersey is not in such good shape financially and Christie really did not want to go back for the snow clearing at first), but the viewer was left with the impression that Christie was still on the attack, regardless of whatever facts were presented.

Blatham had a post about this sometime ago, how the Republicans are not that much put off by the bully, they identify with the alpha male. I didn't pay much attention to it at the time, but Christie was definitely going for that support on debate night.

Here's the clip, everyone can review it and make up their own minds:

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 03:54 pm
From The Washington Post 4:32PM est

Quote:
Chris Christie — the brash New Jersey governor whose fast rise in Republican politics was undone by a petty scheme to clog traffic on a bridge — has decided to suspend his presidential campaign, according to two Republicans briefed on his deliberations.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G9RE09rwe5E/UD7C0OQOHSI/AAAAAAAAIYE/NGQ7O9cyQPc/s1600/chris-christie-get-in-my-belly-fat-disgusting-pig-meme.jpg

But before we get carried away with jokes about angry fat Republican politicians:


http://thelibertyzone.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/nadler-e1355597245299.jpg
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 04:05 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I just posted something that referenced Christie's weight loss

edit

found it



http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/07/08/how-tall-are-the-2016-presidential-candidates

Quote:
Gregg Murray, an associate professor of political science at Texas Tech University, has been studying physical components as they relate to political preference for a while now. Most recently he looked at height, weight and body mass index, or BMI, a measurement calculated from weight and height. He found there's an instinctual preference for leaders who are more "physically formidable," especially in times of strife.

"It's sort of this flash impression that people have," Murray says. Tallness is a factor, but also voters could be looking for candidates who simply look healthy and strong. "The BMI measure was right at the top end of normal weight – it was like right below being overweight," Murray explains.

This is good news for someone like former Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley, who's 6-foot-1 and in good shape. New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, who recently shed major pounds, also could benefit. "My impression is that people do not perceive Christie as unhealthy," Murray says. The 6-foot-3-inch Jeb Bush has been slimming down to fit into this category, too. "He clearly realized he needed to clean up his appearance a little bit," says Murray.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 04:07 pm
@oralloy,
+1 (to counter the mindless downvote)

I know you are speaking with the belief (which I think is based on wishful thinking) that the Republicans will win, but the general election is not currently reliably predictable. I have a slight inclination that you are wrong, and that the Democrats will win but anyone who is sure about any of this now is simply someone who has too much strength of conviction. People who predict this with any degree of conviction are just exposing themselves as people who lack the understanding of the very predictability of what they are talking about.


Quote:
Aside from global warming, what non-military challenges face the world?

I suspect that no matter the challenge, any negative impacts will be worse outside the US than inside the US.


All the stuff Trump talks about in trade ("beating China" etc). We have negotiations with thousands of different entities all the time, we can't just bomb them all into doing what we want so we pursue our interests other ways, getting votes to support us in international bodies, negotiating treaties etc.

And pretty much any military problem before it gets that far is a case for soft power to be attempted first.

For example, the Iran nuke issue is just not something we can tenably deal with with hard power alone. Netanyahu is correct to say we are probably bluffing there because resorting to military means to degrade the Iranian nuclear program would probably be a stupid idea that doesn't do much good and has potential for a LOT of bad.

The world is full of non-millitary challenges, that is just one very crude tool and not suited for most of the geopolitical challenges the US faces.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 04:11 pm
@puzzledperson,
puzzledperson wrote:
Then I saw the post-debate cable news coverage, particularly CNN, which ran endless montages of Rubio repeating the same phrase about Obama "knowing exactly what he was doing", along with commentary praising Christie's remarks as devastating, and reminding viewers that some had in the past suggested that Rubio was "too scripted". Then they would pointedly ask each other if (and how badly) this was going to hurt Rubio.

Without in the least being a Rubio fan, I thought that the controversy was manufactured by the media far more than by the candidate.


You know he repeated it himself 3 or 4 times in the debate right? The repetition meme is on him, on the internet before the media ran with it it was already a meme and I have seen "let's dispel with this notion that Obama doesn't know what he's doing" repeated into random conversations every 10 minutes I am online.

Quote:
All the candidates do this. Donald Trump is probably the worst.


I agree that they all do that to some degree, but no Trump is not the worst. He'll go off script and just attack and be rude and own his hot air. Rubio was the worst example of that I've seen in my life because he did it over and over while being called out for it and couldn't come up with a combo breaker.

Don't get me wrong, I was kinda rooting for Rubio (at least vs Cruz and Trump) but the man flubbed that and did it hard.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 04:13 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Do you think Trump is all bombs and rhetoric? Do you suppose that beneath the bombastic exterior a shrewd businessman that has made a career of wheeling, dealing and negotiating might be hiding? I think Trump will do about as well with foreign diplomacy as anyone running. I think he may go back to wielding a big stick as opposed to Obama's throwing the stick away and carrying around an apology mat. But, I think America's soft power will be as strong as it is now for sure, but more likely stronger.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 04:17 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It was unbelievable, but whether or not it completely derails his candidacy remains to be seen. Remember, the man who was "no Jack Kennedy" became VP, and not the prig who delivered that line.


I wasn't alive then and didn't know that. I have the vague memory that this destroyed his political campaign but can easily be wrong about that.

Quote:
What has me wondering and, frankly, infuriated is why Christie did it. It was, clearly, very effective as a means to wound another candidate but there was no real upside for Christie. His own internal polling had to have predicted he was toast in NH, regardless of how Rubio finished. There was no reason for Christie to believe that he could take 3rd Place from Rubio, and if he wanted to attack someone to gain any advantage, the obvious target was Kasich.

So why did Christie do it and with such relish?


Because it was a great put down that made him feel and look good for a minute. Probably more self-serving than strategic.

Quote:
The obvious answer is that he has cut a deal with Trump. Rubio's meltdown benefited Trump far more than it did Christie.


Interesting speculation but I am going with a simpler explanation, all of these guys would love to have had a moment like that and care more about that than the Republican party.


Quote:
The alternative explanation is a lot more difficult to take: It was personal.

Christie has made a point of going after the candidates who are members of Congress as do-nothing ditherers who are content with arguing about angels and the heads of pins. It's was a predictable line of attack for a governor, but maybe it was more than simply a tactic.


You know it might be predictable but I've never seen it done better than he is doing it. He has both the wording down and comes across as completely sincere about the belief (vs it being just some available mud to fling) I think he legitimately believes it and has enmity for them.

Quote:
Whatever it was, if it was personal and for any reason other than Rubio led a group of Cuban commandos on a raid which resulted in half of Christie's family being slaughtered, it reveals a very ugly side of the NJ governor; one that could easily have ordered the closing of a bridge, that screwed thousands of his constituents, just to get even with a political opponent.


I don't know him too well but that sounds like the Christie I know.

But personally I just think he had a great put down and used it, when it worked so well he twisted the knife. I am not sure it was very calculated so much as just very successful.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 04:19 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
No kidding it's a political transformation! I might be misremembering things but in my mind a Sarah Palin turned into a Bernie Sanders.

It is confusing to me, and I don't quite have a read on Lash anymore but I applaud anyone willing to reexamine their politics, that's rare (going either way).
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2016 04:23 pm
@McGentrix,
You are a bit more centrist than I remembered you to be as well, btw. But without much change in self-image and self-identification. But the tone and positions seem even more centrist than I remember (you were relatively centrist then too, I do remember you being for things like single payer etc that stray from conservative ideology).
0 Replies
 
 

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