revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 09:19 am
@maxdancona,
Well, pardon me for wanting to get the information out there as what exactly a coin toss represent and what it does not represent. From what I understand, there was more than seven coin tosses. There was just seven prescient's who used the Microsoft app, the others used a traditional land line.

I love the way Bernie or his supporters puts things. He gets to say those delegates are not important enough to squabble over leaving the impression that Hillary or those favorable to her did commit fraud, but we won't quibble over it. He is starting to get on my ever lasting nerves.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 09:34 am
@revelette2,
What would you like Bernie Sanders to do about this?

He said that this wasn't worth fighting about and that we should move on.

But this brings up another point, Revelette. This is an example of some of Bernie's supporters, in the heat of the moment, not thinking clearly and making a big deal out of something that really doesn't amount to much.

Have you considered the fact that maybe you are doing the same thing?

As a committed Bernie supporter to a committed Hillary supporter, let's stop the sniping and move on to talk about the real issues that matter.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 09:45 am
@maxdancona,
This is the last I will talk about it. By saying "this" is something not worth fighting about, he implies there is something to fight about. He started it on his way to NH when he said he hopes the counting is fair and said something some counties were in question.

But whatever, if I keep going on, I will only make it worse for Hillary, the same for others Hillary side of course. It is just handy to throw out accusations and then back off.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 09:46 am
@maxdancona,
It might. Do you have a long history of other comments not based on facts where you denigrate Iowa?
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 09:53 am
@revelette2,
Did you watch the debate? Do you know what you are talking about?

The Des Moines Register, a newspaper that endorsed Hillary Clinton, raised concerned about the counting of SDEs. This newspaper suggested that if Sanders asked for a recount, that he would likely have a couple of more delegates

This was not "Sanders Supporter"s suggesting something. This was a third part that just last week had endorsed Hillary Clinton looking at the facts as journalists.

The debate moderator asked Sanders about this. He responded.

I know that you are Hillary Clinton supporter, and I know that we are all emotionally invested in this race.

But the facts here don't support your narrative.

Now can we move onto more important issues like Single-Payer Healthcare, breaking up big banks, or infrastructure investments?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 09:56 am
@parados,
My dislike of Clinton is based on facts. These include

- Her belief that single payer is not possible in the US.
- Her reluctance to break up big banks.
- Her support of non-progressive policies in the past including DOMA, "Don't ask don't tell" and cutting welfare.

I have the same dislike of other politicians who don't support the progressive positions I feel are important.

My dislike of Joe Lieberman was even greater.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 10:23 am
@maxdancona,
The debate of last night has nothing to do with anything I said.

I found the quote I was referring to.

Quote:
Your guess is as good as mine as to what happened,” Sanders said. “I can only hope and expect the count will be honest.”


source

Here is a better quote of what I was talking about.

Quote:
While not officially challenging the results, Bernie Sanders has called for the Democratic Party to release the raw vote tallies from his hair's-breadth loss in the Iowa caucuses, over questions that the state party had not assigned enough staff to properly report the results.

The Vermont senator has cast some doubt on the outcome of Monday's caucuses – in which former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton defeated him by an excruciatingly slim margin – after some precincts experienced delays in reporting tallies, while others came down to, literally, a coin toss to determine a winner.


"I honestly don't know what happened. I know there are some precincts that have still not reported," Sanders told reporters on a flight from Des Moines to New Hampshire early Tuesday, while some dozen precinct results were still outstanding. All precincts have since reported their totals.


"I can only hope and expect that the count will be honest," he said. "I have no idea. Did we win the popular vote? I don't know, but as much information as possible should be made available."

That move would be unusual as Iowa Democrats, unlike state Republicans, do not assign delegates on a strictly proportional basis. Instead, the party uses individual precinct results to determine the number of "state delegate equivalents" that in turn formulates the number of delegates the candidate will receive at county and state conventions later in the year.


source


Actually from what I understood from CNN article, the coin toss does not determine a winner, but rather just a slot.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 10:26 am
@maxdancona,
She does not say single payer is not possible, she says she wants to work towards that goal through Affordable Care Act. I read Sander's plan, it is risky and costly.

Everybody at the time was in favor of don't ask don't tell, it was a step up from what they had before. Most politicians have evolved on this issue.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 10:53 am
@revelette2,
Factually, she does say exactly that...


maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 10:57 am
@revelette2,
I am curious, you post a quote of Bernie Sander's saying that the raw vote data should be released. Do you disagree with this?

How much do your feelings about this depend on the fact that you support Hillary? I am guessing that during the Bush/Gore election (where there was a very close race) that you felt just as strongly on the other side when it was your candidate (I am assuming you were a Gore supporter).

What is wrong with focusing on real issues; like truly universal healthcare, investment in infrastructure and breaking up the banks.

I support Bernie because he represents my position and my interest in real issues... in almost every case.

revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 11:30 am
@maxdancona,
There is no caption on your youtube link. I have a hearing loss. There are two different headlines. One says "Single Payer will never never come pass" while banner reads "Sander's Health Plan will never come to pass."

revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 11:33 am
@maxdancona,
From what I understand, everything has been turned in that can be turned in. Caucus uses "state delegate equivalents", as such it would be kind of hard to be exact. However, that is not the quote in which I referred to earlier as you know very well. I referred where he says he hopes and expects the count will be honest as though there is some question as to the honesty of the counting.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 11:36 am
@revelette2,
Sanders plan is Single Payer. You are technically correct that it is possible that Clinton is talking specifically about Sanders' plan, but what is the difference.

One candidate is saying that the United States should move directly to a single payer system reminiscent of Canada (or any other developed country).

The other candidate is saying that we should stick with a healthcare system run by private insurance companies.

This is a real difference of opinion. I agree with Bernie on this issue. You are free to disagree.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 11:38 am
@revelette2,
I am suggesting that the way you feel about this depends more on your desire to see your candidate come out on top than any objective analysis. Do you feel differently in the times when your candidate is in the opposite position?

How did you feel about Bush/Gore and the Florida vote count?

As a Bernie supporter, I am happy to drop this whole Iowa thing and say Hillary won by a razor thin margin. Then we can move on and discuss the important issues.

If you feel Hillary is somehow wronged by moving on to real issues, what do you think should happen to fix this (other than moving on to important issues)? I don't see how talking about coin flips helps anyone (other than the fact that mathematics is cool).

revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 11:53 am
@maxdancona,
There is big difference.

Quote:
With promises of lower costs and health care for every American, Bernie Sanders’ pitch for a single-payer system sounds like a no-brainer for the country’s bottom line.

But would it actually work?

CNN’s Dana Bash asked the Democratic presidential candidate about the reality of his signature proposal Jan. 3 on State of the Union.

"You really can pay for that without raising taxes on the middle class?" Bash asked. "It just seems hard to believe."

"There are a variety of ways to go forward, Dana," Sanders said. "Our proposal will save the average middle-class family thousands of dollars a year in health care."

Bash and Sanders had a similar exchange about his plan after President Barack Obama’s State of the Union on Jan. 12, 2016, with Sanders insisting it will save the middle class thousands.

Sanders’ proposal is one of the centerpieces of his campaign, so we wanted to examine it in detail. We found that it’s possible the middle class could see savings, but experts disagreed on whether Sanders’ plan pays for itself, based on what he’s laid out so far. The plan seems to rely on the most optimistic scenario for cost savings and efficiency.

Prescribed savings


Sanders proposes to expand Medicare, the health safety net that covers those over 65, to all Americans. He hasn’t released a full plan yet, but he points to previous legislation he’s introduced, namely a 2013 bill for a single-payer Medicare-for-all system, as his general gameplan.

To pay for it, Sanders would impose broad-based taxes: a 6.7 percent payroll tax on employers and a 2.2 percent tax on individual incomes under $200,000 or joint incomes under $250,000. (Progressively higher rates for higher-income earners are described in his 2013 bill.)

Sanders’ campaign says his Medicare-for-all plan would save the average American family $3,855 to $5,173 in annual health care costs.

Instead of an insurance premium, a family making $50,000 — roughly the median family income — would only pay $1,100 in health care income taxes. That’s $3,855 less than what it would pay out-of-pocket for the average premium ($4,955, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation) and $5,173 less if a deductible ($1,318, for individual coverage) is factored in.

As for employers, the 6.7 percent payroll tax means employers would put up $3,350 for family coverage. That’s also thousands less than the average employer premium contribution of $12,591.

Health policy experts say, however, that listing the health care income tax as the only cost to families is misleading.

Missing details

It’s unclear whether Sanders would eliminate deductibles and co-pays. These costs currently exist under Medicare, and his 2013 bill makes no mention of changing the system. But the breakdown from his campaign lists both as $0.

The 6.7 percent payroll tax should also be counted as a worker cost, since it most likely would come out of wages rather than employers’ pockets, experts said. That’s because the sticker price of employer-based insurance isn’t what employers are actually spending.

Employers "pay nothing for insurance in reality," as health care is a fringe benefit of a total compensation package, said Gerard Anderson, a professor of health policy at Johns Hopkins University. So when employers stop providing insurance and are required to pay into single-payer, less money will be available for paychecks.

With this adjustment, the average family would save $505 to $1,823 a year.

Like a free lunch, of course, there ain’t no such thing as free health care. So where is the money to provide universal coverage coming from?

A clean bill of health?

As far as we can tell, Sanders’ plan has not yet been analyzed by independent think tanks or academics. So we ran back-of-the-envelope estimates for revenue from Sanders’ health care taxes using 2013 tax return data from the Internal Revenue Service.

By our napkin calculations, those making more than $200,000 — roughly the top 5 percent of income earners — would contribute about $117 billion to the single-payer system, while everyone else would pay in $126 billion. Payroll taxes yield an additional $432 billion for a total of $675 billion.

That’s still $599 billion short of what the country actually spent on health care in 2013 ($949 billion in premiums and $325 billion for out-of-pocket expenses, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services).

Sanders says his system would make up for that shortfall by trimming costs, as the government would have more leverage to negotiate with health providers.

Experts agreed that single-payer gets you more bang for your buck by reducing administrative overhead, hospital and doctor's’ fees, and prescription drug prices. But some say Sanders is overestimating the potential reductions.

With Sanders’ proposed taxes, costs would need to be trimmed by roughly 42 to 47 percent — a tall order when "the most generous estimates of how much you could cut cost are on the order of 20 percent," said Sherry Glied, a professor of health policy and economics at New York University who’s served in the George H.W. Bush, Clinton and Obama administrations.

"And there are a lot of people who don’t believe those numbers are possible," she said. "Single-payer saves money, but it doesn’t save all the money in the system."

Joseph Antos, a health policy economist with the conservative American Enterprise Institute, said, "The kind of money he’s talking about goes way beyond any plausible guess about how much inefficiency can be ‘wrung out of the system’ — a phrase that makes one think this should be easy when it is very difficult to do."

Brighter views

Others, however, are more optimistic that Sanders’ plan could be actuarially sound.

"The tax rates are probably on the low side of what would be necessary, but not out of the ballpark," said Peter Hussey, a healthy policy analyst at the RAND Corporation, adding that they would work only with significant cost savings and lower benefits.

Hussey pointed to other financing models with higher taxes. In Sanders’ own Vermont, the proposed single-payer state system would require a payroll tax of 11.5 percent and a sliding income tax of 0 to 9.5 percent. A national single-payer system would require a payroll tax of 11.7 percent, according to the National Institute for Health Care Reform.

Gerald Friedman, a health economist at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, analyzed a different 2013 Medicare-for-all bill proposed by Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., and concluded it would be enough to cover everyone, upgrade benefits and save the country $5 trillion over a decade.

But beyond a 6-percent income tax and a sliding payroll tax of 3 to 6 percent, that would require a financial transaction tax (Sanders included this in his 2013 bill but has since committed the tax to free college tuition) as well an estate tax, a capital gains tax and a cap on high-income tax deductions. (Sanders has proposed these but hasn’t said they’ll be used to pay for health care.)

Friedman calculated that with the extra taxes and some tweaks, Sanders’ plan would provide ample coverage and even generate a surplus of $51 billion. Meanwhile, he said, middle-class families would still save thousands, inequality in care and costs would be dramatically reduced, and the overall population would be healthier.

Bitter pills

Even if we set aside the issue of a potentially unbalanced ledger, experts point out several other problems with Sanders’ simple promise of savings.

First, it’s not guaranteed that workers will have the same quality or amount of care under a Medicare-for-all system.

Most employer-based health insurance policies currently have more comprehensive coverage than traditional Medicare, pointed out William Hsiao, a leading health economist at Harvard University who designed universal coverage systems for Vermont, China, Sweden, and South Africa, to name a few.

While Sanders argues that single-payer will make the health system more efficient, "we have seen no evidence of this from the Medicare program, whose cost has grown substantially faster than the economy for most of the last 50 years," Antos said.

Second, reduced costs could also create issues with access. Lower drug prices limit funding for research and development, lower physicians’ salaries disincentivize people going into medicine, lower fees could bankrupt hospitals, and people would have less choice in health plans, listed Hussey.

And finally, experts expressed skepticism that lawmakers would ever pass Sanders’ single-payer system, which would require a tax increase of hundreds of billions.

"Keep in mind each dollar saved is a reduction in someone’s income, which is part of why this plan is politically untenable," said Don Taylor, a professor of health policy at Duke University. "But if you could wave your hand and do it, we could spend less."


source

I don't know if I agree with all of it, it is views from both political parties. In any event, when you consider he also calling for free college education, it is a lot of changes, with a lot of money at stake. I agree with Hillary, it will not pass.
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 11:55 am
@maxdancona,
No I agree we should move on to other issues, I just found the way you phrased it disingenuous.
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 12:01 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote max:
Quote:
One candidate is saying that the United States should move directly to a single payer system reminiscent of Canada (or any other developed country).

The other candidate is saying that we should stick with a healthcare system run by private insurance companies.


Or, put another way, one candidate is saying we should work on improving the going-toward-universal healthcare plan that we have been able to pass, and the other says we should abandon it and try to get a plan passed even though it is unlikely the supporters will gain a majority in the House anytime soon.

Considering the Republican field now consists of candidates who all have plans to get rid of Social Security and Medicare as we know it, I think the important thing is to get any Democrat in office who will head off these plans. The difference between Sanders and Clinton is not much compared to the horrifying alternatives.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 12:08 pm
@revelette2,
I vote for the person that represents my positions and interests. Bernie Sanders may not be able to get the perfect healthcare plan through Congress. But he has stated clearly what direction he thinks is best, and that is what I want in a leader.

Anyone with principles, certainly Bernie or Hillary, is going to have trouble getting everything they want through Congress. So what? That is the nature of being a principled leader.

I think the argument is that Hillary will somehow have more luck getting legislation through Congress then Bernie Sanders will. This is a reasonable argument... but I see no real evidence that it is true.

My support for Bernie is based on his principles, and his positions on issues important to me. I want a leader who will fight for these even with the understanding that he won't always succeed. No one will always succeed, but Bernie is very clear that he will try.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 12:08 pm
On Sanders health care, what I find the oddest, is having it set up in the states by the states. I can just imagine the republican governors who will be bringing lawsuits. We already went through that with the Medicare expansion and the Supreme Court and it was not in our favor but the republican governors.

Court holds that states have choice whether to join medicaid expansion
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2016 12:11 pm
@maxdancona,
Which is exactly why now is not the time for single payer health care plan. What are the odds of it happening like it did when the ACA passed? We only had a super majority for a short window of time. I think it is better to mend the ACA rather than starting all over risking loosing it all.
 

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