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Does the Bible say that all Christians will go to heaven?

 
 
puzzledperson
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Jan, 2016 04:01 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote (in reference to Matthew 16:28): "Another possibility is that Jesus was speaking of his transfiguration spoken of in the following chapter (17) when he took Peter, James & John with him on the mountain. Precisely what is meant by transfiguration is I'm not sure but when God directly addressed Jesus and proclaimed him as his son in their sight and they were then unable to look directly at him, it could well be his 'Coming into his kingdom'."

But then there is Matthew 24:34 which follows a description of and unambiguously refers to the end time events of the Last Trump and the gathering of the elect, among other things familiar from Revelation. "Assuredly I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."

Also, Matthew 16:28 transitions directly to Matthew 17:1 which says: "Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them high up on a mountain by themselves..."

It seems implausible that Jesus would speak so momentously in Matthew 16:28 of events to take place a mere six days later: "Assuredly I say to you, there are some standing here now who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

A king rules his kingdom. Standing before Pilate, Jesus says in John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight...but now My kingdom is not from here."


puzzledperson
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Jan, 2016 04:24 pm
@Nova Flare Q,
Nova Flare Q wrote: "Also, how do we know that we are on the right Christian path, according to what the Bible says?"

Presumably meaning is revealed by the Holy Spirit. Acts Chapter 2 is suggestive.

"This old anvil laughs at many broken hammers. There are men who can't be bought. The fireborn are at home in fire. The stars make no noise, You can't hinder the wind from blowing. Time is a great teacher. Who can live without hope?"

0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jan, 2016 04:59 pm
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
But then there is Matthew 24:34 which follows a description of and unambiguously refers to the end time events of the Last Trump and the gathering of the elect, among other things familiar from Revelation. "Assuredly I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."
I assumed that this refers to the generation that sees the signs he described just before, not the generation alive as he was speaking since they had not seen those signs.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Jan, 2016 05:14 pm
@puzzledperson,
Quote:


Also, Matthew 16:28 transitions directly to Matthew 17:1 which says: "Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them high up on a mountain by themselves..."

It seems implausible that Jesus would speak so momentously in Matthew 16:28 of events to take place a mere six days later: "Assuredly I say to you, there are some standing here now who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

A king rules his kingdom. Standing before Pilate, Jesus says in John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight...but now My kingdom is not from here."
Why not 6 days later? As your last paragraph points out, his kingdom was not of this world. These events took place very near the end of his time on earth (I think) so perhaps God was recognizing that he had essentially done what he came to do and his kingdom was already an accomplished fact in God's eyes. The events to follow were mere formalities. I've never seen the crusifiction itself as the all important event that organized religion does. The message had already been delivered.

Just my best guess.
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 08:26 pm
@Leadfoot,
The meaning of Matthew 16:28 is best indicated by the rest of the verses of the chapter where it occurs, particularly by the verse immediately preceding it:

16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

16:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

This is the Last Judgment, an end time event, not something to take place a mere six days later. It includes all, not just Peter, James, and John. Why would Jesus make the trivially obvious assertion that at least some of his disciples would be alive a mere six days later?

Similarly, the meaning of Matthew 24:34 is given by the chapter context, including the immediately preceding verse. The whole chapter is a dissertation on the end times:

24:3 "...Tell us, when will these things be? ..."

24:33 "So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near -- at the doors.

24:34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."

He doesn't say "when a future generation sees these things", he says when (speaking to his listeners) YOU see these things. He doesn't say "that" generation, he says THIS generation, to his listeners.

Again, it would be silly to make the trivially obvious assertion that the generation which sees the signs won't pass away until they see the signs.
Harry Blake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 09:41 pm
@anthony1312002,
asked- "Does the Bible say that all Christians will go to heaven?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, all TRUE Christians will go, but nobody knows what a true Christian is because only God knows..Wink
There are lots of people who THINK they're true Christians but they're in for a shock because Jesus said- "Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)

neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 09:45 pm
@Harry Blake,
What about the ones left on the earth who make up the kingdom over which heavenly ones are kings and priests? Revelation 5:10
Harry Blake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 09:58 pm
@neologist,
said- "What about the ones left on the earth who make up the kingdom over which heavenly ones are kings and priests? Revelation 5:10"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation is full of symbology, analogy and metaphor (e.g the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse and stuff like that) as disciple John struggled to put it down on paper in human language, so we shouldn't become over-fixated on individual verses.
If people want to stay behind on earth they should be careful what they wish for, but personally I want to get off this planet as soon as possible and transcend into purely spiritual form..Smile
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.. flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:42-50)
Jesus said- "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven" (Matt 22:30)


puzzledperson
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2016 11:41 pm
@Harry Blake,
But don't forget that Jesus was resurrected; and he had a body. Mary Magdalene mistook him for the gardener, and doubting Thomas saw the prints of the nails in his hands (John, Chapter 20).

First Corinthians 15:44 says "There is a natural body and a spiritual body".

Second Corinthians 5:2-5 says: "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, If indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life."

And Matthew 19:28 says: "So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." "

None of this sounds to me like naked spirits.
Harry Blake
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 01:33 am
@puzzledperson,
You can sit on a throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel if you like, but I'd be bored stiff..Wink
Here are on earth our bodies are "spacesuits" which our soul has to "put on" to get around on this planet, same as Jesus, but when our bodies die, our "spacesuits" are dumped and our souls fly like his-
"In the twinkling of an eye the dead shall be raised imperishable and we shall be changed" (1 Cor 15:52)
In other words we're changed from squishy fleshy humans into purely spiritual life-forms, regard it as the final step of human evolution..Smile
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 02:04 am
@Harry Blake,
Harry, it seems to me that you are seriously and hopelessly deluded, However, you seem to have a positive attitude, so carry on. (I'm sure you do.)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 05:23 am
@Harry Blake,
I was wondering where in our gene ome does the spirit center live? How isit sustained when we first have to die for it to kick in??
puzzledperson
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 05:28 am
@Harry Blake,
Harry Blake wrote: " "In the twinkling of an eye the dead shall be raised imperishable and we shall be changed" (1 Cor 15:52) In other words we're changed from squishy fleshy humans into purely spiritual life-forms, regard it as the final step of human evolution."

Well, the first is a quote, but the second is an inference.

In Second Corinthians 5:17 (which is about this subject) we find the phrase "old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new".

We find the same phrase repeated in Revelation 21:5 "Behold, I make all things new."

And in fact there is some indication of this in the first verse of the same chapter:

21:1 "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also, there was no more sea."

It's hard to see how the meek shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5) if there is no earth and everyone is noncorporeal in a noncorporeal realm.

Looking at the chapter of First Corinthians you have quoted, we see in the preceding verse (15:51) "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed". Insofar as "sleep" refers to death, this says that not all will die, but that all will be changed.

And 15:42 says that "The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption." It doesn't say that the souls of the dead are raised, it says that the body is raised.

Where are the souls of the dead after death, and how could a "resurrection" be possible if souls already free of the body remain noncorporeal?

Luke 20:37-38 says: "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

What does that mean, "all live to Him"?

Matthew 19:28 which I quoted earlier uses the term "regeneration". You do not regenerate immortal souls.


0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 06:41 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

16:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

This is the Last Judgment, an end time event, not something to take place a mere six days later. It includes all, not just Peter, James, and John. Why would Jesus make the trivially obvious assertion that at least some of his disciples would be alive a mere six days later?

Similarly, the meaning of Matthew 24:34 is given by the chapter context, including the immediately preceding verse. The whole chapter is a dissertation on the end times:
I think it was about the end times too. The tricky bit is in 16:28 where he says 'there are some standing here who shall not taste death... ’. That implies that either:

Some of those guys standing there are still alive (in their bodies). Or
The last days have already occurred.

So how do you explain the apparent contradiction ?
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 06:54 am
@Harry Blake,
Quote:
can sit on a throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel if you like, but I'd be bored stiff..Wink
Here are on earth our bodies are "spacesuits" which our soul has to "put on" to get around on this planet, same as Jesus, but when our bodies die, our "spacesuits
The clash between your view and neo's is resolved by the 1000 year reign of Jesus on the 'new earth' when souls are woken to be in their resurrected bodies. But JW thinks it's not for 1000 years,; it's forever. Obviously I disagree.

My guess is that the 1000 years are a way of resolving all the misconceptions that the various groups of believers have acquired. If they all entered heaven immediately after the reserection, heaven would look pretty much like earth does now, only much more violent. I myself would no doubt have my head blown off with a celestial cannon by some fundamentalist in the first 5 minutes.

puzzledperson
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 07:24 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote: "So how do you explain this apparent contradiction?"

Well, I'm trying to foster discussion. The thread is a discussion of what the Bible says (see topic title), not about what I personally believe; and I've been trying to contribute in that spirit. Now you've forced the question, but I'll try to continue in the same spirit.

A Christian believer could look at it as a mystery that must be acknowledged but that has yet to be resolved. This might be called the devotional approach.

Someone taking a "historical-critical" approach might claim that the passages in question represent the "apocalyptic" strain of Judaic thought and that quotes from Jesus about an imminent apocalypse represent the expectation of that worldview, which subsequent passage of time (without the resurrection, final judgment, and other end time events) rendered void, requiring a revised postponement that later authors of Biblical books incorporated, but which earlier authors, who relied more closely on the surviving oral and written traditions of Jesus's statements, did not see fit to revise.

And then there's Maude.

puzzledperson
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 07:37 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote to Harry Blake: "The clash between your (Harry Blake's) view and neo's is resolved by the 1000 year reign of Jesus on the 'new earth' when souls are woken to be in their resurrected bodies."

I'll just take the opportunity to point out what I wrote in a first page comment:

"Since the dead in Christ are not limited to those beheaded for their witness to Jesus, they are not resurrected until the thousand years have finished."

For the reasoning (citing Biblical quotes for the purpose) behind this conclusion, see the first page of comments, this thread.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 07:39 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
And then there's Maude.
Oh! Why didn't you just say you were trolling?
puzzledperson
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 07:41 am
@Leadfoot,
Who said I was trolling?

Aren't you even going to Google the lyrics?

Edit: If I were really trolling I might reference First Corinthians 1:19,

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
Harry Blake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2016 08:49 am
All that '1000 year' claptrap cuts no ice with me..Smile
The plain fact is that none of us know the mechanism of the afterlife, although some crackpot cults claim that the truth has been revealed to them alone in one form or another.
Remember, Jesus said to the thief dying on the cross next to him "Today you'll be with me in Paradise."
See, no 1000 years wait, and no "purgatory" or "second chance" nonsense..Smile
 

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