Conservatives, Liberals and Blacks

Are you saying that Al Gore's father who didn't vote for civil rights was a closet Requblican?

You are trying to say that because democrats voted against the Civil rights movement they were "closet republicans"? I suppose Lincoln was a democrat?

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the actual vote (House 333 for-48 against) (Senate 77 for-19 against) indicates, that aside from a handful of dixiecrats, the support, for numerous reasons, was bi-partisan.

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Foxfyre wrote:

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Poverty Rates
A portion of the population has always been in poverty, sadly. It's instructive to see how that proportion goes up or down, during the liberal Carter and conservative Reagan administrations.
Hint: While Carter proclaimed he was helping the poor, their numbers increased. When Reagan began to get government out of people's way, the percentage of poor decreased. Coincidence?
Private Charitable Giving
Everybody has heard about the "greed and heartlessness of the Reagan era". But a look at what actually happened, tells quite a different story. During the liberal Carter era, charitable giving actually declined as people became accustomed to letting Government take care of the poor. Not until the conservative Reagan era dawned, even while rich and poor alike started to see increases in prosperity, did people begin to take on more responsibility to the poor, and charitable giving skyrocketed.
http://www.little-acorn.com/cvr01.htm

Some of the preceding support a portion of Williams' thesis as does the following:

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Worse than the practice of conrating culture, viewpoint, and skin color, Sleeper says, is the tendency of some liberal whites to hold blacks to lower standards. Sociologist Andrew Hacker, for example, tries to explain away black crime as a natural response to discrimination. But Sleeper argues that just as the early civil rights movement "invoked moral judgements in order to convict white segregationists of sin" so we all should hold ghetto residents to basic standards of behavior and not deny them moral agency. So too, in university admissions, if part of the argument for integration is to reduce prejudice, he says, all the more reason for blacks to be held to the same standards as whites. Surely, many blacks suffer from inadequate educational training, and consideration of class disadvantage is appropriate; but it is part of liberal racism, Sleeper says, to assume that even the most affluent and educated black family is somehow educationally
disadvantaged.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles

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Your data is interpreted by you to show that conservatives did it. The work in the trenches was done by liberals, no matter how the voting went. I was in those trenches. That's my data.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Can we have an adult conversation and refrain from personal insults as much as possible on this thread? Racism is an emotionalily charged topic as it is without pouring gasoline on the fire.

Yes, of course I can. Sorry about getting a little bit testy.

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Walter Williams is on record that it was good and right to end slavery, and even though it caused some problems for black families, it was good to end segregation. Affirmative action was necessary in the 1970's and 1980's to get people used to minorities in the workplace.

Now it is 30 years later and people like Williams say that battle was fought, the war was won, minorities have parity in opportunity and earning power, and it is time for America to become truly color blind. Others continue to think of black people as an underclass victimized by the system.

Well, first of all, black families on the average earn 60% of what white families equally educated do. http://www.manningmarable.net/works/jan03b.html I read somewhere that in 1954, the disparity was 53%, in the 80s it was 57%, and now about 59%, so when will they be equal? In about 200 years?

Also, there is still defacto segregation in many inner cities in America. I suppose we should lump all minorities together, though, not limit it to African-americans. More good jobs are in the suburbs than in the inner cities, and diminished job prospects for those trapped by poverty. This has caused rising rates of unemployment, economic desperation, and jobs predominantly in the low-wage sector. This poverty cycle among lower-classes remains after vestiges of legal Jim Crow have disappeared.

Don't tell me you believe the police don't profile... Rolling Eyes

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Which attitude is racist do you think?

Both can be equally racist depending upon who's putting it forth, and for what agenda. Racism doesn't follow a single thread or line. It is subtle. It is insidious.

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The political landscape was different in those days. There were many liberal leaning Republicans, as represented by Vice President Rockefeller, and there were people of every stripe in the Democratic Party. Most of the right-wing Democrats eventually became Republicans. That's why I am careful to say liberal/conservative instead of naming parties.

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Two things: Walter Williams is a thoughtful conservative writer who's well respected in DC where I grew up.
2. Don't even talk to me about conservatives and Republicans helping to end segregation. I was there. Virginia. 1960. Seperate bathrooms. Entrances. Water coolers. Schools. It was the liberals who forced integration on an unwilling nation. I was there.

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You're cool PrincessP. I myself am always so calm and unemotional about these things you know. . .
(cough)

I'm looking for another article I saved or bookmarked someplace related to the stats you cited. Until I can find it, I'm summarizing to the best of my recollection:

1. The welfare policies of the 60's, 70's, 80's almost required fathers to leave the home and consigned a whole generation of the poor to remain on government largesse, however meager, for a lifetime. White most of the poor were white, a disproportionate number of the poor were black.

2. The well intentioned but counterproductive policies of the benevolent pushed the idea that the poor was owed something by the government, that the rich had screwed them over, and they were victims. Along with this went the idea of 'we will help you.' Nobody ever did, but that was the campaign promises election ater election.
At any rate we perpetuated the angry victim attitude.

3. By the 90's, however, those minorities who didn't buy into that, who didn't get heavily into drugs, who didn't drop out of school, who did get an education, and who did learn to speak and dress professionally, develop a work ethic, learn a trade, pay their dues working up through the ranks, etc. found by and large they had all the opportunity including the wages and all the perks that go with it.

This is why Bill Cosby was praised by some in his recent diatribe against poor parenting and allowing young blacks to develop habits and behavior that ensured they wouldn't get ahead. And note, organizations like the NAACP who's existence is dependent on the victim mentality strenuously objected to his comments.

Of course there is still racism as well as sexism, homophobia, fear of spiders, and differences in points of view about what success looks like. But uniformly, as far as I can tell, conservative blacks believe the war is won and it's now time for black people to realize it and take their rightful place in society. I don't think anybody thinks it is yet a perfect world or that it will ever be for anybody. But anybody with gumption and a willingness to pay their dues can make it.

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Right, panzade.

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And people, in the 1970's, I was exec of any agency who's imperative was ELIMINATE RACISM WHEREVER IT EXISTS AND BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. I'm not operating in a total vaccum here. Smile

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To princess:

Do you have any idea why there is such a gap in the earning of white and black people? I would have to say that one of the biggest reasons has to do with a large % of the black population is single-family homes. I saw an estimate that said 70% of black children are born into single-family homes. This means there is only one person working, or not working in the case of welfare families. With only one person working it puts a large dent on how much money can be made.

People try to make it sound like it is the fault of white people but that isn't true. There is a large portion of the black community that doesn't take care of what they create. Many black males don't stick around after getting a woman pregnant and leave that woman in poverty due her being on her own. I would like to see what the wealth status is of black families that have both parents around with at least both working, which is the case for most white families?

edgarblythe wrote:

Your data is interpreted by you to show that conservatives did it. The work in the trenches was done by liberals, no matter how the voting went. I was in those trenches. That's my data.

There were conservatives in the trenches as well. People like you always try to make it sound like conservatives are always trying to remake slavery or segregation happens again. It isn't true. The facts remain and it is the voting record of the civil rights movement that show who was responsible for civil rights. Yes people marched but it is the vote that made it possible.

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It is racist to set up systems which penalize one set of people for retaining their cultural identity, especially if you claim they are dumb b/c they don't have the same knowledge base as another group of people.

Yes, yes it is. But luckily no one is doing that...

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The NAACP has done a world of good to promote equality for all colored people (not just black.)

It would be easier if htey promoted equality by not segregating them. The NAACP tries to make blacks equal to whites by saying blacks are different but just as good. When actually they should say black/white it doesnt amtter. Every should be actulaly equal. Imagine the uproar if a group was set up to help whites....

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Liberal politicians have long been the friend of the downtrodden, which historically have included a great number of people of color.

First of all talkin about modern times not back in the racist days. Second of all (as I've stated about 3 times before) thats the problem. Liberal treat blacks specially and w/ sympathy when they should treat as they would whites, so no color is greater than another. Once again no one said liberals are racist.

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He seems to be forgetting that without the liberals willing to step up and protest laws of "separate but equal," there would be no Condeleeza Rices or Clarence Thomases out there in gov't appointments.

Once again this irrelavent. The original post was about modern times not the past.

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Not to be too nitpicky el-diablo but is there any manifesto the NAACP has published to support the following quote?

"It would be easier if htey promoted equality by not segregating them. The NAACP tries to make blacks equal to whites by saying blacks are different but just as good"

I understand where you're coming from but haven't seen the organization espouse this doctrine.

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Well ya they probably have never said it or published it, but by making a group to help blacks you are essentialing segragating them if you understand what im sayin.

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In case anybody is interested, here is a really good history of who, what, and how the Civil Rights Act of 1964 made it to Lyndon Johnson's desk.

http://www.congresslink.org/print_basics_histmats_civilrights64text.htm

And some additional information on it:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5436

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I'm still reading

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I think the argument here is being pursued from two different perspectives, and that each side has but a portion of the truth. The liberals, working with the black community, did the work that raised public awareness. Roosevelt was the first president to begin allowing black participation, followed by Truman integrating the military. The death of Kennedy and public perception of his goals set up the congress to approve the '64 civil rights act. Now, the government, which was controled by Democrats became so concentrated on handouts and burocracy (oh hell, I keep spelling it wrong) , but not fine tuning the programs, that the programs became unwieldy and did not fully fulfill the original purpose. This created dissatisfaction with many voters. The Republicans siezed on the problems and guided public thinking to dismantle the programs instead of finding the faults and fixing them. Consequently, these "benefactors of the Black and poor" were able to decimate the working poor's safety net along with things like welfare. The public dissatisfaction I mentioned is one of the primary causes of public acceptance of conservatism. Those who support the conservatives today don't realize that the Conservative agenda will keep them down a lot longer than the liberals will.

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Edgar, you need to re-read your history. You'll find those 'evil' conservatives have initiated and/or supported enough legislation that eliminates barriors or gives a leg up to blacks and all minorities to make a liberal proud.

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while I do agree, as I stated above, racism knows no party lines, I am also aware of the classic example of republican racism when Ronald Reagan attempted to reverse a long-standing policy of denying tax-exempt status to private schools that practice racial discrimination and grant an exemption to Bob Jones University.

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El-Diablo wrote:

Quote:
It is racist to set up systems which penalize one set of people for retaining their cultural identity, especially if you claim they are dumb b/c they don't have the same knowledge base as another group of people.

Yes, yes it is. But luckily no one is doing that...

Well, you're wrong on that point. It's done all the time here, I've seen it, heard the racist comments of some in positions of power directed at Pacific Islanders. I've also heard them directed at black people who aren't understood at all here except as the one group of people once respected less than native Hawaiians. Of course, I live on an outer island in Hawaii, so maybe our instances of racism don't count since they aren't mainstream American in origin...

[quote="El-Diablo]

Quote:

The NAACP has done a world of good to promote equality for all colored people (not just black.)

It would be easier if htey promoted equality by not segregating them. The NAACP tries to make blacks equal to whites by saying blacks are different but just as good. When actually they should say black/white it doesnt amtter. Every should be actulaly equal. Imagine the uproar if a group was set up to help whites....

Quote:

Liberal politicians have long been the friend of the downtrodden, which historically have included a great number of people of color.

First of all talkin about modern times not back in the racist days. Second of all (as I've stated about 3 times before) thats the problem. Liberal treat blacks specially and w/ sympathy when they should treat as they would whites, so no color is greater than another. Once again no one said liberals are racist.

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He seems to be forgetting that without the liberals willing to step up and protest laws of "separate but equal," there would be no Condeleeza Rices or Clarence Thomases out there in gov't appointments.

Once again this irrelavent. The original post was about modern times not the past.[/quote]

Okey dokey, if that's how you see it, but I disagree... Rolling Eyes

Lemme ask you this then, why do you think Bush dissed the NAACP? Just so he didn't have to address the reality of things today of issue to people of color in America?

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