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learn me some Dutch

 
 
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:17 am
Ik wil het Nederlands leren.

Ik zal online woordenboeken en vertaalhulpmiddelen gebruiken.

Dat zal me woordenschat onderwijzen.

Maar ik zal één of andere hulp in de volgende gebieden nodig hebben:

Uitspraak
Basis grammatica (bijvoorbeeld, vervoeging)

Voor uitspraak, houden van I'd van online middelen te kennen.

Voor basisgrammaticai'd behoefte een eenvoudige les op vervoeging.

En het belangrijkst, tevreden correcte babelfish voor me
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,838 • Replies: 38
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:18 am
Ok, my first question:

I = I

But why does "I want" = "Ik wil"
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:23 am
Ok, using the babelfish, I think I've determined that there is not a separation of the transitive "to be" from the more permanent one.

For example, in English "I am tired" and "I am human" both use the same "to be" verb.

In other languages (like Portuguese) they are different.

For example,

Sou humano. and Estou cansado.

Babelfish translated "I am happy" and "I am American" with the same "to be" verb.

Ik ben gelukkig and Ik ben Amerikaans

So, is that assumption correct? Or did babelfish mess up?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:27 am
This is the conjugation I got from the babelfish, is it correct? And are there any differences between English pronouns and Dutch pronouns?

Ik ben - I am
U bent - You are
Hij/zij/het is - He/she/it is
zij zijn - They are
wij zijn - We are

Past

Ik was. U was. Hij was. Zij was. Het was. Zij waren. Wij waren.

Future?

Ik zal zijn. U zult zijn. Hij zal zijn. Zij zal zijn. Het zal zijn. Zij zullen zijn. Wij zullen zijn.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:29 am
who, what, where, when, why and how?

Is this it?

wie wat waar wanneer waarom hoe
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:31 am
Since when is I I? I = Ik (in Dutch).

I = Ik
You (singular) = Jij
He = Hij
She = Zij
It = Het
We = Wij
You (plural) = Jullie
They = Zij (both She and They are translated as Zij)

Now, this is of course basic, and can be easily found on the Internet. Dutch grammar is complicated (I'll warn you for that). It has regular and irregular verbs. It is useful to learn the two most important verbs (in every language): to be and to have.

To be = (te) zijn

To have = (te) hebben

Both are irregular verbs in Dutch.

The conjugation of these two verbs are as followed:

To be (Zijn)

I am = Ik ben
You are (singular) = Jij bent
He is = Hij is (not too difficult)
She is = Zij is
It is = Het is
We are = Wij zijn
You are (plural) = Jullie zijn
They are = Zij zijn.

To have (hebben)

I have = Ik heb
You have (singular) = Jij hebt
He has = Hij heeft
She has = Zij heeft
It has = Het heeft
We have = Wij hebben
You have (plural) = Jullie hebben
They have = Zij hebben

This is all present tense of course.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:35 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
U bent - You are

Now, 'U' is a sort of polite form to adress elderly people, or people you don't know. But 'You are' (singular) should be 'Jij bent' (except in Flemish, and in certain Dutch dialects - here down south we tend to use 'Gij' in plaats van 'Jij'; both forget that, because it only makes it more complicated).
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:36 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
who, what, where, when, why and how?

Is this it?

wie wat waar wanneer waarom hoe

Correct.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:39 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
So, is that assumption correct? Or did babelfish mess up?

For what I know, that assumption is correct. I am Craven de Kere would be Ik ben Craven de Kere, I am crazy would be Ik ben gek etc.
0 Replies
 
drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:41 am
Hey, Craven;

I've never read 'I'd' in Dutch, as I is always, as far as I am aware, 'Ik.' The problem is that there is no straight equivalent to the conditional tense in Dutch; I think that 'I'd like' would be 'Ik vil,' 'I like,' like in some Eastern languages.

Those conjugations are right as sugar; they have, however, forgotten a few things. 'U' is like 'you' in middle English; for superiors, those older than you. Je is used for our old 'thou' form, and 'you (familiar) are' would be 'je bent.' There is another form, 'jullie', which is now commonly used for the 'vosotros' and 'ustedes forms in Spanish or the 'os senhores' and 'voces' forms in Portugues; it takes the same forms as 'we' and 'they;' 'you people are' is 'jullie zijn', you people were 'jullie waren,' etc.

And, like other Germanic languages, zijn is used for every be.


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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:45 am
Now I'll give you an example of an irregular verb:

(te) Leven (to live)

I live = Ik leef
You live (singular) = Jij leeft
He/She/It lives = Hij/Zij/Het leeft
We live = Wij leven
You live (plural) = Jullie leven
They live = Zij leven

Now, the big difference between regular and irregular verbs is the past tense. First I'll give you the conjugation of a regular verb, in this case 'leven' (to live):

I lived = Ik leefde
You lived (singular) = Jij leefde
He/She/It lived = Hij/Zij/Het leefde
We lived = Wij leefden
You lived (plural) = Jullie leefden
They lived = Zij leefden
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 03:57 am
Well, not a bad idea:

"Spelend Nederlands leren, met Rick van Jammer PSV".
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 04:16 am
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
Since when is I I? I = Ik (in Dutch).


Grrr, I guess babelfish was treating it as a letter and not a word.

Ok, Ik leerde vandaag iets.

dròm_et_rêve wrote:
There is another form, 'jullie', which is now commonly used for the 'vosotros' and 'ustedes forms in Spanish or the 'os senhores' and 'voces' forms in Portugues; it takes the same forms as 'we' and 'they;'


Thanks, 'vosotros' and 'ustedes' were exactly what I had in mind when I asked about other pronoun variants.

Rick d'Israeli wrote:
Now I'll give you an example of an irregular verb:

(te) Leven (to live)

I live = Ik leef
You live (singular) = Jij leeft
He/She/It lives = Hij/Zij/Het leeft
We live = Wij leven
You live (plural) = Jullie leven
They live = Zij leven

Now, the big difference between regular and irregular verbs is the past tense. First I'll give you the conjugation of a regular verb, in this case 'leven' (to live):

I lived = Ik leefde
You lived (singular) = Jij leefde
He/She/It lived = Hij/Zij/Het leefde
We lived = Wij leefden
You lived (plural) = Jullie leefden
They lived = Zij leefden


You have me confused now, isn't that the same word? Is it irregular and regular?

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, not a bad idea:

"Spelend Nederlands leren, met Rick van Jammer PSV".


I'm spelend niet. I'm ernstig. Het Duits is de volgende taal. Bang ben!

BTW, I'm glad I checked babelfish, cause I had made a false cognate for "Spelend" in my haste.

=======

Before I go, a question:

Is Dutch a phonetic language? If so, I'll try to approach the pronnunciation that way, if not I'm screwed.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 04:20 am
Hmm, I was starting a thread to practice and want to confirm something I think I learned.

Nederlandse = Dutch (language)? And dutchman?

And is Nederlands the Netherlands?
0 Replies
 
drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 04:52 am
No problem, Craven Very Happy. It's best to hear the language in action, but I'll give a guide to Dutch pronunciation. It's very regular, but some sounds are hard to express in writing.

Firstly, we should think about vowels: in Dutch, like in English, they have long and short vowels. Luckily, their system is far simpler.

A vowel coming before two or more consonants (either doubled or as a combination of letters,) is short, so you should pronounce it as the short vowels that I give. It's important to remember this part, and it will make far more sense, naturally, after I go through the sounds.

A vowel coming before just one consonant (like vader) or a doubled vowel (like zee,) is long.

A:

When A is short, you pronounce it like the a in Cat. It's more authentic is you put your lips puckered to make this sound, but people will understand you still if you pronounce it as in the English short vowel.

When A is long, it's like the ahh in Father; usually a tiny bit shorter, unless it comes before an r, but-- as it depends on dialect-- quite a few pronounce is like an English long A.

E:

Short E is sort of like the e in Espanya (well, with the tilde instead of the y, but my keyboard is playing up and will only enter certain unicodes.)

Long E is like the é in Cliché, which, as you know, is an 'ai' sound, like say. (Meer, more, you pronounce then as mér.)

I:

Short I in Dutch is exactly the I in sit (zitten).

Long I (which is spelt ie when doubled) is like the ee in 'sea.'

O:

Short O in Dutch is NOT like our short O (cot, not, etc.) It is like the aw sound in 'lawn, pawn.'

Long O is like the O in 'no; go' but it's best to make a kissing mouth while pronouncing it.

U:

Short U is like a stressed version of 'defer,' never like 'cup,'

Long U (spelt oe,) is like the u in luna, but you have to linger on it for longer; 'luu na.'

Long U (spelt uu and u in front of only one consonant) is tricky; say 'ee' with the protruded, kissing lips.

There is something always long, EU: you pronounce it like the ur from English 'earnest,' or like the eu from the French 'feu.'

Now, there are diphtongs; I'll explain them now but break the post up so that it has more pretence of order!

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drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 04:54 am
(O, before I carry on: Nederlands is the language; Nederlander is 'Dutchman' (they use the same suffix as German's famous -er (ich bin ein Berliner.) Netherland is how you say 'Netherlands.')


0 Replies
 
drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 05:05 am
Dipthongs, these are the most difficult things for me to express, but here goes:

Ei and ij are pronounced very like the 'alleviated I' sound of 'cry' and 'light.'

Ui is er followed by ee, in the same sound, obviously. It's like saying ee at the back of your throat. It's like the way some people, especially in Porto, pronounce 'foi'. If you want a wave sound, I could get one, because it's difficult to express.

Uw is is like the sound in Brazillian portuguese 'rua.'

Ou and au are pronounced as 'Dow' and 'foul' are pronounced in English.

Aai, ooi, oei, ieuw and eeuw:

Aai is like 'aye,' 'cry'
Ooi is like 'toy', 'coy,' but the O is a long oh, not a short one.
Oei is like the 'wee' sound of French's 'oui.'
Ieuw is like Californian 'you.'
Eeuw is pronounced as Braz. Portuguese's 'eu.'


'


0 Replies
 
drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 05:22 am
Consonants are like in English, apart from:

B and D: these are usually as in English, but are pronounced as 'p' and 't' at the end of a word. So, when you say 'ik heb,' you're actually saying 'eek hep.' 'Bed' is like 'bet.'

K is like in English, apart from when it comes before a word with 'b' or 'd.' So, you'd say 'eek hep' for 'ik heb,' I have, but you would say 'ig beyn' instead of 'ik ben.'

W is like the 'v' in 'vast,' but you have to touch off; you pronounce the V by putting your lower lip on your upper teeth, then letting go after the V. Try is with 'water.'

Dutch R is like the Rr in Spanish's perro, or Portuguese's 'carro.'

J is pronounced like German's 'ja;' the sound in 'yacht.'

NJ is, logically, like the nh in 'senhora' or the n' in 'Espan'a--' oranje.

TH in Dutch is like French's théatre; the H is silent: so, theorie is just 'teyohree,' not 'theyohree.'

NTJ is just pronounced as 'ty', like the sound in English's 'channel (tyanul.)' The N is always dropped.

X is like the 'ch' in Loch, or German's 'ich.'

Sch is pronounced like in 'ship.'

Sj is like the sh in 'shall.'

And that's it.. apart from assimilation.

Like in English, if we wanted to say 'heart's sins,' we wouldn't interrupt the s glide with a stop... we'd let it go along. In French, deux artistes 'doo zatist.' If, in Dutch, one word ends with S and the other begins with Z, like 'een doos zeep' (a box of soap,) you just pronounce it 'een dohsseep.' But that's something that's not hugely life-ending.






0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 05:27 am
dròm_et_rêve wrote:
(O, before I carry on: Nederlands is the language; Nederlander is 'Dutchman' (they use the same suffix as German's famous -er (ich bin ein Berliner.) Netherland is how you say 'Netherlands.')




Then what the devil is "Nederlandse"? And I shoulda known the "Nederlander" one, I've heard that one before.

Thanks for the phonetics!!! I'm working my way through it slowly.
0 Replies
 
drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 05:35 am
Nederlandse? That's Dutch as in the adjective, Dutch... like 'Het Nederlandse leven' would be 'Dutch lives.'

No problem at all, Craven! That's the best way to work through it. I posted in bulk because I'm off soon. What made you want to learn Dutch? I must admit, the Netherlands & Dutch itself have always fascinated me...

0 Replies
 
 

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