DNA, Where did the code come from?

@layman,

"5": It's still speculation with no evidence.

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I'm pleased to see that the discussion has moved on from the amateur attempts to define 'information' from that mongrel website jeksite.org. which seems to specialize in 'psychic issues'.
The most useful general definition of 'information' I came across in my research was 'that which can trigger a choice between alternatives'. But even that definition is problematic. The word 'trigger' is important because it implies that 'choice' is an anthropomorphism from a cognitive observer with a concept of conscious 'choice', yet at lower levels the trigger is mechanistic, i.e. there is no 'choice' The ID fallacy is to assume that the trigger mechanisms per se were consciously 'chosen'.
Because of this deflation of 'choice' with respect to 'information', more radical biologists like Maturana have rejected 'informational models' with respect to biological processes.

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You can get the answer to the OP's question by reading any one of thousands of sources. This process has been well understood for a century and a half, far longer than the existence of DNA has been known. A self replicating molecule far, far simpler than DNA formed by chance and natural selection acting over the whole world for several billion years produced life on Earth as we know it today.

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@Brandon9000,

Quote:

A self replicating molecule far, far simpler than DNA formed by chance and natural selection acting over the whole world for several billion years produced life on Earth as we know it today.

And I suppose you can identify this molecule? Have one in your lab? Show that it can arise by chance?

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
A self replicating molecule far, far simpler than DNA formed by chance and natural selection acting over the whole world for several billion years produced life on Earth as we know it today.
And I suppose you can identify this molecule? Have one in your lab? Show that it can arise by chance?

No. Whatever it was is long gone. The theory is that random chemical reactions in oceans all over the world for about one billion years eventually resulted in a molecule far, far simpler than DNA that made copies of itself. The fact that I don't have one in my lab says nothing whatever about the probability of it happening. What's your theory? Magic?

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@Brandon9000,

Quote:

What's your theory? Magic?

I've made no secret of 'my theory'. The only source of specified information of any significant complexity is from an intelligent designer (us). So far, no one has offered any exception to that. Since we did not design 'us' (or the unknown self reproducing molecule which AFAIK would have to be of significant complexity) , there must be another intelligence at work.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
What's your theory? Magic?
I've made no secret of 'my theory'. The only source of specified information of any significant complexity is from an intelligent designer (us). So far, no one has offered any exception to that. Since we did not design 'us' (or the unknown self reproducing molecule which AFAIK would have to be of significant complexity , there must be another intelligence at work.

I disagree with your conclusion. Cite your source. The complexity is the result of natural selection. This is a very well understood process. The creatures best suited to survive tend to survive more frequently, and over time their characteristics spread through the population. This gradually builds up complexity. We're talking about natural selection over billions of years.

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@Leadfoot,

You can say evolution is "intelligence at work."

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

You can say evolution is "intelligence at work."

Thats closer to something plausible. But the intelligence had to come first. An organism capable of evolving is a trick piece of work.

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@Leadfoot,

It's called survival of the fittest.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

Thats closer to something plausible. But the intelligence had to come first

.

Interesting but fact-free. Do you not see evolution as a pretty much opportunistic path of life highly dependent upon changes in the environment??

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@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

You can get the answer to the OP's question by reading any one of thousands of sources. This process has been well understood for a century and a half, far longer than the existence of DNA has been known. A self replicating molecule far, far simpler than DNA formed by chance and natural selection acting over the whole world for several billion years produced life on Earth as we know it today.

Name one. This is one (of many reasons) why Crick did not believe DNA could have originated on earth.

Quote:

This process has been well understood for a century and a half, far longer than the existence of DNA has been known.

It's a process that's not understood, let alone "well understood," as of 2016. Where do you come up with this kinda stuff?

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@layman,

layman wrote:

Farmer (Max too) Do you think it's possible that there is intelligent life in the universe other than us?

If so, do you think it's possible that some of this life could be MORE intelligent than us?

Not gunna answer, Farmer? Max?

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@layman,

layman wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
You can get the answer to the OP's question by reading any one of thousands of sources. This process has been well understood for a century and a half, far longer than the existence of DNA has been known. A self replicating molecule far, far simpler than DNA formed by chance and natural selection acting over the whole world for several billion years produced life on Earth as we know it today.

Name one....

Well, I have just given you the whole theory above, but here is another source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

layman wrote:

Quote:
This process has been well understood for a century and a half, far longer than the existence of DNA has been known.

It's a process that's not understood, let alone "well understood," as of 2016. Where do you come up with this kinda stuff?

I guess I get it from the field of evolutionary biology. It's well understood. About a billion years after the Earth formed, a molecule, much, much simpler than DNA, that replicated itself formed by chance. New traits are introduced by accident (called mutation). Then natural selection takes over. Traits that work tend to spread over time through the population. Traits that don't work well tend to be expunged from the population over time. Gradually, the reproducing entities become more and more functional. Sometimes they compete with each other, which hastens the rate of improvement. Fast forward a few billion years and you get the world as we see it today. What part don't you understand?

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
You can say evolution is "intelligence at work."
Thats closer to something plausible. But the intelligence had to come first. An organism capable of evolving is a trick piece of work.

Nonsense. Once you have a self-replicating molecule, then the rest is just mutation and survival of the fittest. Just out of curiosity, how do you think that bacteria become resistant to antibiotics?

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@Brandon9000,

Quote:

Well, I have just given you the whole theory above, but here is another source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

The "whole theory" of natural selection doesn't apply to the ORIGIN of life. Any particular thing you're citing wiki for? Is there anything, any sentence, any passage, or anything else there that talks about natural selection in connection with the origin of life? Anything?

Quote:

It's well understood. About a billion years after the Earth formed, a molecule, much, much simpler than DNA, that replicated itself formed by chance

.

Really? Do you have ANY evidence of this? Any authority who claims this is known or well understood?

Quote:

New traits are introduced by accident (called mutation)....

I don't need a third-grade lecture on what the basic neo-Darwinian theory is. Tell me what, exactly, first "mutated by accident?" Did whatever it is/was come from a "mutation?"

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http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/1503548_850498281638773_6566254600041103896_n.jpg

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@layman,

At this point, I'll just repeat this post, eh?

layman wrote:

Quote:
You should read about natural selection.

Yeah, Max? And what would you recommend that he read, eh?

Any neo-darwinist will tell you that their theory says NOTHING about how life originated. It just assumes that as a starting point, and makes no attempt to explain it.

These days many people seem to think that just throwing out the phrase "natural selection" somehow, magically, explains anything and everything. It's omnipotent, and works in mysterious ways. Kinda like God, ya know?

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@farmerman,

Quote:

Interesting but fact-free. Do you not see evolution as a pretty much opportunistic path of life highly dependent upon changes in the environment??

The existence of that first randomly generated self replicating molecule is what's fact free. You don't seem able to admit that yet.

Environmentally forced evolution is plausible and happens on the 'micro' scale but the scale of macro evolution is still beyond what mutation and natural selection can accomplish. Yeah, I know, lots of tiny changes over time. I've baked that into my conclusion as well.

Even on the micro scale, it required the pre existence of an amazing design.

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@Leadfoot,

Allow me to suggest you reconsider those words 'amazing' and 'design' with respect to Progogine's work on dissipative structures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissipative_system

1 Reply

DNA, Where did the code come from?

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