17
   

DNA, Where did the code come from?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:08 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
No betting required, just stay open to the possibility


whatever , when you can dredge up some evidence post it.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:30 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
There is the question you asked and I answered.


Those are the questions I asked, but as I already noted, they are not the ones you answered.

In the early years of establishing the "modern synthesis" (Neo-Darwinism) they was a lot of "doctrinal warfare" going on. The Neo-Darwinists were trying to eliminate and/or discredit all dissenters and thereby establish an "orthodox" ideological platform. This was not an issue of science, really, it was a matter of a priori postulates, kinda like "scripture" based on faith.

Two of the sacred tenets, to be regarded as indubitably true, by all "respectable" (i.e. neo-darwinistic) evolutionary theorists were:

1. The randomness of all mutations, and
2. extremely gradual changes to explain macro-evolution as just being "more of the same" of what was known to exist at the micro-evolutionary level (such as animal breeding).

Of course natural selection as the driving force behind evolutionary change was also primary, and gradualism is necessary to make that even remotely plausible. The "mutationists," like Goldschimdt, for example, denied that macro-evolution could be accomplished by gradual changes. They HAD to be forever eliminated. If mutations were rapid and dramatic, then mutations, not natural selection would be seen as the "driving force."

With respect to 1, above, (random mutations) theorists like Lamarck had to be utterly vilified and never spoken of with an ounce of respect ever again. All notions of teleology (purpose) HAD to be eliminated if the godless doctrine which Dawkins so admires was to stand unquestioned.

Dawkins, being a good neo-darwinist, was outraged by the heresy of Gould in casting any doubt on these sacrosanct doctrines. Barbara McClintock got the same treatment, only worse, because she was not as capable of defending herself. She was mocked, ridiculed, sneered at and blacklisted for her scientific findings (for which she later got a Nobel prize). She was intimidated to the point where she would not even attempt to publish her scientific research. She just kept it all private.

Lynn Margulis and Carl Woese got similar treatment, for precisely the same reasons: questioning established dogma. Neo-Darwinism became essentially a highly authoritarian, faith-based religion, as noted by Michael Ruse and many others. They were so influential and successful in their "brain-washing" that there are many remaining adherents today.

Your attempt to cite supposed "evidence" that came out much later as Dawkins motivations for opposing Gould doesn't even make sense, and just shows that you didn't read (or at least didn't understand) the questions.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 04:49 pm
@layman,
Quote:
With respect to 1, above, (random mutations) theorists like Lamarck had to be utterly vilified and never spoken of with an ounce of respect ever again. All notions of teleology (purpose) HAD to be eliminated if the godless doctrine which Dawkins so admires was to stand unquestioned.


I should have noted that Darwin himself believed that acquired characteristics could be inherited. One reason why the modern synthesis crowd were "neo" rather than just plain "darwinists."
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 05:21 pm
From wiki regarding "gradualism" versus PE:

Quote:
Punctuated equilibrium is commonly contrasted against phyletic gradualism, the belief that evolution generally occurs uniformly and by the steady and gradual transformation of whole lineages (called anagenesis). In this view, evolution is seen as generally smooth and continuous.

Eldredge and Gould proposed that the degree of gradualism commonly attributed to Charles Darwin is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record, and that stasis dominates the history of most fossil species....Before Eldredge and Gould alerted their colleagues to the prominence of stasis in the fossil record, most evolutionists considered stasis to be rare or unimportant. George Gaylord Simpson, for example, believed that phyletic gradual evolution (called horotely in his terminology) comprised "nine-tenths" (90%) of evolution.

The sudden appearance of most species in the geologic record and the lack of evidence of substantial gradual change in most species—from their initial appearance until their extinction—has long been noted, including by Charles Darwin who appealed to the imperfection of the record as the favored explanation. Darwin needed to forcefully stress the gradual nature of evolution [writing] "...If species really, after catastrophes, created in showers world over, my theory is false."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium

It was not just the rapid and extensive appearance of life forms that challenged Darwinian theory. The stasis (equilibrium) aspect demonstrated by Gould upset darwinists. If random mutation was constantly occurring and changing species, then how could many species remained unaltered over course running into hundreds of millions of years? Where's the presumed "mutations?' Gould argued that once established, the evolutionary norm was for species to maintain, rather than alter, themselves.

You claim that PE is no longer "in favor," Farmer. That's not my understanding. Do you have a source for your suggestion that most current evolutionary theorists reject PE?

According to the "evolutionary library" at PBS:

Quote:
The concept of punctuated equilibrium was, to some, a radical new idea when it was first proposed by Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge in 1972. Now it is widely recognized as a useful model for one kind of evolutionary change. The relative importance of punctuated and gradual patterns of evolution is a subject of debate and research.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/5/l_035_01.html
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 05:58 pm
@layman,
This is what Gould said in 1980:

Quote:
I have been reluctant to admit it—since beguiling is often forever—but if Mayr's characterization of the synthetic theory is accurate, then that theory, as a general proposition, is effectively dead, despite its persistence as textbook orthodoxy" (Gould, 1980).


Ya think that kinda crap didn't piss off Generals in the Modern Synthetic army, like Dawkins, eh? I took that quote from contemporary evolutionist Larry Moran, at the Sandwalks blog, eh, Farmer. It will no doubt piss you off that Moran himself said, as of 2013:

Quote:

It does not seem reasonable to refer to modern evolutionary theory as "Darwinism," "neo-Darwinism," or the "Modern Synthesis," since all of these terms refer to a version of evolutionary theory that has been modified to such an extent that the old-fashioned terminology is just confusing.

The "Modern Synthesis" is dead. Long live modern evolutionary theory.


http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2013/12/is-modern-synthesis-effectively-dead.html
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 06:04 pm
@layman,
GOULD himself backed off PE in his later yars. I attended several of his lectures a he responded to the Dennetts and Dawkins and as some of the fossil evidence cast some question on th possibility of "pwripheral isolqtes" (popultional term used by Darwin himself for what would serve as a model for PE 150 yers later).
Mayr ha a nice hypothesis of "end of range" species back in 1956 (16 yers before G&E published their papers)
PE , the concept and the hypothesis with Goulds data is still taught in classes (I teach it in survey Paleo class). Its not much relied upon especially ince Gould even took himself out of the burn. I teach it as a means to be certain about our stratigrphic continua (Do we have all the data we need in our central thesis?)
Dawkins saw the gaps in the "Stasis /PE" data as events that occur in peripheral or migrating small populations (sort of the same argument against "drift"). Others , mostly paleos from SUNY actually found some of G&E's Formational areas that were NOT hiatuses in stratigrphy and found fossil evidence of more gradualistic assemblages. that argued against PE (Of course, Henry Howe et al found similar sites without hiatuses that supported Gould).
NOBODY has really looked at the differences in stratigraphy and environmental conditions where various assemblages existed and developed through the relatively short "stasis" periods Gould was first a paleontologist and none of the PE papers diiscuss anything about fine environmental differences that my account for stasis or migration and development of apparent PE assemblqges.

Many feel tht the whole concept is a pimple on a cows ass. Gould was a very entertaining writer and much of his supportive writing about PE was free of convincing science but was loqded with neat stories about hos family, historical chracters and, of course baseball. Rhetorical skills hve made PE a sweetheart deal for Creationists who want to use it as a refutation of evolution.
I can understand why you try to bring it up scientistically, but you picked the wrong guy up whose ass your smoke is being directed.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 06:15 pm
@layman,
PS regarding Lamarkiaanism. Of course Darwin did NOT refute any hypothesis that didnt eschew TRANSMUTATION.
Desmond and Moore give an excellent discussion of how little Darwin actually "got" when he was trying to develop a mechanism for what would become natural selection. DeVries, Lamark, Buffon were all under the gun from the Academy establishments of France and England. SO, while Darwin refutes much of Lamarks other stuff, he holds on tothe heritability of acquired characteristics s something that could "Stoke" trqnsmuttion of species.
I think he basically bought that pqrt of Lamrck because , like Lqmark, Darwin was unable to really come up with something fixed that could define what a species even was.
Sort of a BFD . these were all men of their times , they couldnt see two hundred years into the future.

Gotta hobble to the barn and do lmb duty.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2016 06:25 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Rhetorical skills hve made PE a sweetheart deal for Creationists who want to use it as a refutation of evolution.


You're demonstrating, once again, that you define "evolution" as, and ONLY as, Neo-Darwinism, eh, Farmer? PE IS a theory of evolution. How could anyone use it to "refute" evolution? It might be used to challenge Neo-Darwinism, sure, but NOT evolution. Your definition of evolution strikes me as highly idiosyncratic, eh?

Quote:
Many feel tht the whole concept is a pimple on a cows ass.


Probably so, Farmer, and no doubt you would be among those "many." But, ya see, many DON'T see it that way, so what is your point?

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2016 06:40 am
@layman,
Read the "Accidental Creationist" by R WRight. The use of a phrase "Sudden apparance fully formed" is a favorite Creationist/ID piece of tripe. Gould has always been a sucker for "unwitting Quote Mining" since his many arguments are often convoluted and full of silly pop culture (mostly sport) references. Consequently, as a popular writer he commands attention, as a scientist, not so much.
John Maynrd Smith said about Gould: "because of the excellent writing of his essays, hes come to be seen as the preeminent evolutionary biologist".
In contrast some outspoken,e volutionary biologists see him"as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with"
If youve ever waded into Gould"s "Structure of WEvolutionary Theory" youd see its pretty much a 1500 page wank job by a scientist who has resigned himself to his mortality.

PE is an interesting concept and I dont know whether there are any field sites besides 1 or 2 where pleontologists were able to find
Long period of Stasis
Followed by a Rapid evolution
WithMixed occurenceof ancestral and new assemblages

All I know is that Goulds own sites were soon found out to be not evidence of "rapid evolution" but of poor sedimentalogical continuity.

Ive always maintained multiple hypotheses and I can assure that my personal feelings are paraded in front of students only to prompt some critical discussion. Using a PE "world" is interestingly a type of sedimentological search term used as a tool in hydrocarbon searches. (There exist several derived "index" fossils (Primarily in the Paleozoic)sequences that seem to skip gradual fossil occurrences and, as we take measured sections of the fossils separations (by vertical differences) , the closing of the fossil occurrence distance actually helps "point" to a "play". We rely upon mapping these paraconformities or even smaller "diastems"

0 Replies
 
Kelly Bloyd
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2016 12:20 pm
@anthony1312002,
My belief is that everything is a live with intelligence, forced intelligence even objects. We're inside a live body, a process, like a black hole which has just recently been proven to exist. They found waves from two black holes colliding. DNA is intelligence forced. All things have mass because of radiation and a gravitational singularity, fusion was made possible. Converted energy is brought into this body, and converted energy is released from this body we and our universe reside inside, imp.
0 Replies
 
manden
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 05:38 am
Where did the DNA (code) come from ?

Simple question , simple answer :
where everthing comes from : from the true (real) God and father of the mankind , the real creator of the universe - is of course N O T one of the
m a n m a d e idols of the m a n m a d e religions ! ! !
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 05:46 am
@anthony1312002,
Is "God" organized ? So what intelligence created his " DNA" ? Ifinite regress on "mind" is bound to alwais it less then mind...it from bit.
manden
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 06:04 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Do you want to grasp a Logic (and intelligence) which is many billion times
superior ? For that is only word : M E G A L O M A N I A ! ! !
The terrible illness of the mankind ( together with EGOISM ) !
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 06:42 am
@manden,
I don't want to grasp anything, I have made a question in a mobile phone at the coffee shop. Please answer it if you can ! The legitimacy of this thread question depends on answering to my question.
manden
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 07:47 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I gave the answer . I f you are NOT ABLE to grasp it , you must work at you !
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 08:45 am
@manden,
Where is the answer to whether is God organized and who organized him given the premisses that organization requires some mind ???
At least don't be a blunt liar bubba...hell is waiting.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 09:14 am
No matter what science does to try to understand the "how did this occur"? some folks, living on an alternative plane of reality will be arguing about gods,spooks and dust bunnies.

manden
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 09:16 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
The answer is : we with our minimal logic and intelligence cannot grasp it !
Clear now ?
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 09:23 am
@farmerman,
Get better soon and stop watchinv tv...I fear for your intelect stability if you gona spend one week in front of a tv...I want you around to throw some friendly punches at you science man ! Wink
0 Replies
 
manden
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2016 11:17 pm
Everything what exists must have a creator !
That is the very simple truth !
And create - make something without having anthing - only can the real
creator of the universe !
That is many billion times above our logic and intelligence !
Use a little bit of your logic and intelligence , and you can understand that !
AND START TO LIVE THE TRUE LIFE " WITH " your creator and father
of the mankind ! ( of course not manmade idol of the manmade religions )
0 Replies
 
 

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