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The Truth About The Pollard Affair

 
 
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 04:30 am
Here is the truth about the Pollard affair.
http://www.aish.com/ci/s/48900367.html

Pollard was blamed for something he didn't do.It was Soviet agents who gave the info to the USSR.
They had infiltrated Israeli intelligence.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 6 • Views: 2,963 • Replies: 26

 
engineer
 
  7  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 07:19 am
@JoeBruno,
Pollard was blamed for something he absolutely did do: transfer huge quantities of US secrets to Israel for money.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 07:43 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
Pollard was blamed for something he absolutely did do: transfer huge quantities of US secrets to Israel for money.

True. But usually spies for allied nations, whose spying does not cause anyone's death, serve seven or eight years.

Spies for enemy nations, whose spying results in the deaths of American agents, usually serve 30 years.

Pollard was the victim of some pretty serious anti-Semitism on the part of the American Left.

That said, we can turn this against the Left, since they like Snowden, Manning, and Assange so much, by insisting that those characters all serve the same sort of sentence that Pollard was forced to serve.
engineer
 
  7  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 08:03 am
@oralloy,
The greatest voices for keeping Pollard in jail were not from the left, they were from the right.

From Wikipedia (which is well sourced if you want to find the original articles)
Quote:
Numerous active and retired US officials—including Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, former CIA director George Tenet, multiple former U.S. Secretaries of Defense, a bipartisan group of U.S. congressional leaders, and members of the American intelligence community—opposed any form of clemency

What made the Pollard case unique is the extreme quantity of documents transferred and his willingness to make huge quantities of cash for his activities. Before blindly supporting him, read up on the details of his spying. He stole documents on China to support his wife's business, he sold the entire ten volume manual on how the US conducts intelligence operations, revealed the names of thousands of US informants around the world and admitting shopping his services around to other countries. Pollard is no martyr for the Jewish cause as historical revisionists are trying to portray him. From Seymour Hersh's 1998 piece:
Quote:
at a crucial moment in the Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations at the Wye River Conference Centers, in Maryland, Clinton tentatively agreed to release Pollard, or so the Israeli government claimed. When the President’s acquiescence became publicly known, the American intelligence community responded immediately, with unequivocal anger. According to the Times, George J. Tenet, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, warned the President that he would be forced to resign from the agency if Pollard were to be released. Clinton then told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Pollard’s release would not be imminent, and ordered a formal review of the case... Pollard, these officials told me, had done far more damage to American national security than was ever made known to the public; for example, he betrayed elements of four major American intelligence systems.

If you haven't read that article, you should read it all the way through before saying Pollard was treated unfairly.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 08:41 am
@engineer,
Now dammit engineer why are you posting facts to confuse oralliar with?

That's really mean of you.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 10:34 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
The greatest voices for keeping Pollard in jail were not from the left, they were from the right.

From Wikipedia (which is well sourced if you want to find the original articles)
Quote:
Numerous active and retired US officials—including Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, former CIA director George Tenet, multiple former U.S. Secretaries of Defense, a bipartisan group of U.S. congressional leaders, and members of the American intelligence community—opposed any form of clemency

Maybe among government officials, but as far as political arguments from ordinary citizens go, most of the vehemence against Pollard comes from anti-Semitic Leftwingers.


engineer wrote:
What made the Pollard case unique is the extreme quantity of documents transferred and his willingness to make huge quantities of cash for his activities. Before blindly supporting him, read up on the details of his spying. He stole documents on China to support his wife's business, he sold the entire ten volume manual on how the US conducts intelligence operations, revealed the names of thousands of US informants around the world and admitting shopping his services around to other countries.

Did his actions lead to anyone's death?

How much was the US harmed from having our close ally Israel know all of this stuff?


engineer wrote:
Pollard is no martyr for the Jewish cause as historical revisionists are trying to portray him. From Seymour Hersh's 1998 piece:
Quote:
at a crucial moment in the Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations at the Wye River Conference Centers, in Maryland, Clinton tentatively agreed to release Pollard, or so the Israeli government claimed. When the President’s acquiescence became publicly known, the American intelligence community responded immediately, with unequivocal anger. According to the Times, George J. Tenet, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, warned the President that he would be forced to resign from the agency if Pollard were to be released. Clinton then told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Pollard’s release would not be imminent, and ordered a formal review of the case... Pollard, these officials told me, had done far more damage to American national security than was ever made known to the public; for example, he betrayed elements of four major American intelligence systems.

It's been suggested by Pollard's advocates that Mr. Tenet's opposition was only appropriate because it was still in the first half of Pollard's prison term, and it would not have been appropriate to be so vehement had someone tried clemency later in his prison term.

I have no idea if Mr. Tenet would agree with this suggestion.

Was Mr. Tenet opposed to the US trading captured American spies for captured Soviet spies during the Cold War?


engineer wrote:
If you haven't read that article, you should read it all the way through before saying Pollard was treated unfairly.

I don't see anything that counters the claims that Pollard did not get anyone killed, and only spied for friendly countries.
engineer
 
  7  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 10:54 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Maybe among government officials, but as far as political arguments from ordinary citizens go, most of the vehemence against Pollard comes from anti-Semitic Leftwingers.

Most of the arguments come from the intelligence community. Did you see where Clinton wanted to set him from and Tenet threatened to resign?
oralloy wrote:

Did his actions lead to anyone's death?

Unknown. Lots of informants were named. Even if no one was killed, that is not to Pollard's credit. There is absolutely no evidence that he screened any material to protect people. In fact the opposite. He did massive data dumps, transferring documents in mass.

oralloy wrote:
How much was the US harmed from having our close ally Israel know all of this stuff?

Why did Pollard reveal detailed information about how US submarines track Soviet submarines? Why would Israel ask for or need such information? There is only one country in the world that would have cared about that - the USSR and Pollard certainly knew that. As a submariner who was under the water while Pollard was risking my life for a few thousand a month, I'm not amused.

oralloy wrote:
It's been suggested by Pollard's advocates that Mr. Tenet's opposition was only appropriate because it was still in the first half of Pollard's prison term, and it would not have been appropriate to be so vehement had someone tried clemency later in his prison term.

I have no idea if Mr. Tenet would agree with this suggestion.

How convenient. Let's just throw this argument out there and see if it sticks. Amazing how no one has bothered to ask Tenet but they are completely willing to make this assertion.
oralloy wrote:

engineer wrote:
If you haven't read that article, you should read it all the way through before saying Pollard was treated unfairly.

I don't see anything that counters the claims that Pollard did not get anyone killed, and only spied for friendly countries.

Then no facts will ever change your mind. There is plenty of evidence that information he took ended up in the USSR and that information he took was specifically of interest to the USSR, that he stole information for personal use, that he made very large sums of money for his thefts and that much of the information stolen had nothing to do with Israel's security. If that doesn't do it for you, nothing will.
Tes yeux noirs
 
  3  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 11:11 am
I wonder if Pollard is Oralloy's new Amanda Knox?
glitterbag
 
  4  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 12:02 pm
Pollard handed over sensitive material to Israel. The United States has info sharing agreements with our friends but we do not provide unfettered access to all material. Even people who are U.S. Intelligence professionals are not entitled to see every single thing/sources and methods of programs where they don't have a need to know.

Israel is making the argument that the U.S. and Israel are great pals so it's really an understandable tempest in a teapot. However, Israel already has an agreement with the U.S. re. Info sharing, which means they were violating their agreement (in other words, spying/espionage) by asking an American to sneak info to them. If indeed it was something they should see, they could have requested it and possibly it would be handed over. What they wanted was not agreed upon in the partnership agreement so they decided to simply steal by paying a U.S. Citizen to get it for them.

Israel does not give the U.S. total unfettered access to their entire operation. They do share whatever has been agreed upon in the partnership agreements. And if an American Intell professional was caught trying to pay an Israeli for sensitive information Israel would prosecute.

As far as I'm concerned Pollard should still be in prison with all the other traitors who sell secrets to other countries. Pollard wasn't the only person approached by Israeli intelligence and coaxed to spy on the U.S., but he was willing to betray his country and his oath. I have no pity for Pollard nor any other traitor who trades secrets for cash.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 12:39 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
Most of the arguments come from the intelligence community.

There are a lot of anti-Semitic Leftwingers who also argue against Pollard.


engineer wrote:
Did you see where Clinton wanted to set him from and Tenet threatened to resign?

I was already aware of it. It doesn't seem very relevant to the issue however.

Pollard either spied for an ally and didn't get anyone killed, or not.


engineer wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Did his actions lead to anyone's death?

Unknown. Lots of informants were named. Even if no one was killed, that is not to Pollard's credit. There is absolutely no evidence that he screened any material to protect people. In fact the opposite. He did massive data dumps, transferring documents in mass.

Manning/Assange did mass data dumps as well. Another argument for ensuring that they serve the same sentence as Pollard.

But anyway, if no one was killed, it stands to reason that it would be fair to treat Pollard like a spy who did not get anyone killed, as opposed to treating him as a spy who did get people killed.


engineer wrote:
oralloy wrote:
How much was the US harmed from having our close ally Israel know all of this stuff?

Why did Pollard reveal detailed information about how US submarines track Soviet submarines? Why would Israel ask for or need such information? There is only one country in the world that would have cared about that - the USSR and Pollard certainly knew that. As a submariner who was under the water while Pollard was risking my life for a few thousand a month, I'm not amused.

Did Pollard give that information to anyone other than Israel?


engineer wrote:
oralloy wrote:
It's been suggested by Pollard's advocates that Mr. Tenet's opposition was only appropriate because it was still in the first half of Pollard's prison term, and it would not have been appropriate to be so vehement had someone tried clemency later in his prison term.
I have no idea if Mr. Tenet would agree with this suggestion.

How convenient. Let's just throw this argument out there and see if it sticks.

Well, it is in line with their position that spies for friendly countries and who don't get anyone killed, usually serve shorter sentences than spies for enemy countries and who do get people killed.


engineer wrote:
Amazing how no one has bothered to ask Tenet but they are completely willing to make this assertion.

It wasn't an assertion. It was an opinion over what would be appropriate later in Pollard's prison term.


engineer wrote:
oralloy wrote:
engineer wrote:
If you haven't read that article, you should read it all the way through before saying Pollard was treated unfairly.

I don't see anything that counters the claims that Pollard did not get anyone killed, and only spied for friendly countries.

Then no facts will ever change your mind.

Well, facts that establish that he got people killed, or facts that establish that he spied for enemy countries, those could change my mind.

Facts that don't actually impact those points, not so much.


engineer wrote:
There is plenty of evidence that information he took ended up in the USSR and that information he took was specifically of interest to the USSR, that he stole information for personal use, that he made very large sums of money for his thefts and that much of the information stolen had nothing to do with Israel's security. If that doesn't do it for you, nothing will.

Is there evidence that he was spying for the USSR? How did the information end up there?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 12:41 pm
@Tes yeux noirs,
Tes yeux noirs wrote:
I wonder if Pollard is Oralloy's new Amanda Knox?

I guess to a person who is so horrible that they actually like the idea of sending innocent people to prison, the notion of fair treatment must seem a bit mysterious.

(Just to be clear, I'm accusing you of being the horrible person described above.)
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 01:23 pm
@Tes yeux noirs,
I hope not.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 01:29 pm
@oralloy,
Some of Oralliar's left wing Pollard haters:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/576453/posts

Why Pollard Should Never Be Released (The Traitor)
The New Yorker Magazine | :January 18, 1999, pp. 26-33 | SEYMOUR M. HERSH

Posted on 11/22/2001, 9:32:44 PM by blackbag

The Case Against Johnathon Pollard

In the last decade, Jonathan Pollard, the American Navy employee who spied for Israel in the mid-nineteen-eighties and is now serving a life sentence, has become a cause celebre in Israel and among Jewish groups in the United States. The Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, a consortium of fifty-five groups, has publicly called for Pollard's release, arguing, in essence, that his crimes did not amount to high treason against the United States, because Israel was then and remains a close ally. Many of the leading religious organizations have also called for an end to Pollard's imprisonment, among them the Reform Union of American Hebrew Congregations and the Orthodox Union.

Pollard himself, now forty-seven, has never denied that he turned over a great deal of classified material to the Israelis, but he maintains that his sole motive was to protect Israeli security. "From the start of this affair, I never intended or agreed to spy against the United States," he told United States District Court Judge Aubrey Robinson,Jr., in a memorandum submitted before his sentencing, in 1986. His goal, he said, was "to provide such information on the Arab powers and the Soviets that would permit the Israelis to avoid a repetition of the Yom Kippur War," in 1973, when an attack by Egypt and Syria took Israel by surprise. "At no time did I ever compromise the names of any U.S. agents operating overseas, nor did I ever reveal any U.S. ciphers, codes, encipherment devices, classified military technology, the disposition and orders of U.S. forces . . . or communications security procedures," Pollard added. "I never thought for a second that Israel's gain would necessarily result in America's loss. How could it?"

Pollard's defenders use the same arguments today. In a recent op-ed article in the Washington Post, the Harvard Law School professor Alan M. Dershowitz, who served as Pollard's lawyer in the early nineteen-nineties, and three co-authors called for President Clinton to correct what they depicted as "this longstanding miscarriage of justice" in the Pollard case. There was nothing in Pollard's indictment, they added, to suggest that he had "compromised the nation's intelligence-gathering capabilities" or "betrayed worldwide intelligence data."

In Israel, Pollard's release was initially championed by the right, but it has evolved into a mainstream political issue. Early in the Clinton Administration, Yitzhak Rabin, the late Israeli Prime Minister, personally urged the President on at least two occasions to grant clemency. Both times, Clinton reviewed the evidence against Pollard and decided not to take action. But last October, at a crucial moment in the Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations at the Wye River Conference Centers, in Maryland, he did tentatively agree to release Pollard, or so the Israeli government claimed. When the President's acquiescence became publicly known, the American intelligence community responded immediately, with unequivocal anger. According to the Times, George J. Tenet, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, warned the President that he would be forced to resign from the agency if Pollard were to be released. Clinton then told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Pollard's release would not be imminent, and ordered a formal review of the case.

The President's willingness to consider clemency for Pollard so upset the intelligence community that its leaders took an unusual step: they began to go public. In early December, four retired admirals who had served as director of Naval Intelligence circulated an article, eventually published in the Washington Post, in which they argued that Pollard's release would be "irresponsible" and a victory for what they depicted as a "clever public relations campaign." Since then, sensitive details about the secrets Pollard gave away have been made public by CBS and NBC.

In the course of my own interviews for this account, the officials who knew the most about Jonathan Pollard made it clear that they were talking because they no longer had confidence that President Clinton would do what they believed was the right thing -- keep Pollard locked up. Pollard, these officials told me, had done far more damage to American national security than was ever made known to the public; for example, he betrayed elements of four major American intelligence systems. In their eyes, there is no distinction between betraying secrets to an enemy, such as the Soviet Union, and betraying secrets to an ally.


0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 01:58 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Is there evidence that he was spying for the USSR? How did the information end up there?

That is a phenomenally great question. Pollard stole information that was only of interest to the USSR and sent it to Israel. To this day, Israel has refused to tell us what they did with the information. Intelligence analysts believe that Israel was packing it up and selling it to the USSR to get emigration rights for Russian Jews, but they've never proven it. Still, why did Pollard take US submarine data? During the Cold War, submarine interactions were pretty much daily events with both sides playing hard ball under the water. This information wasn't just laying around. Pollard went and got it and sent it to someone who shouldn't care, but for some reason did. To me this is tremendously damning.

Quote:
There are a lot of anti-Semitic Leftwingers who also argue against Pollard.

Do you have a link for that? Donald Rumsfeld said Pollard shouldn't released in July. From that same article, in a March 2001 memo, sent to Bush, Cheney, then-Secretary of State Colin Powell and then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, Rumsfeld called any measure to free Pollard “enormously damaging to our efforts to keep spies out of our government.” According to Haaretz, Rumsfield and his Republican allies were promising to make Pollard a campaign issue if he went free. Where are your links for the "leftwingers"?
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 03:46 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
Pollard is no martyr for the Jewish cause as historical revisionists are trying to portray him.

Since there is no singular, monolithic Jewish cause, this goes without saying.

Judging by the support given him by the Zionists, however, he is seen as a patriotic martyr for theirs.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  3  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2015 12:07 am
All I have to say re Israel is U S S LIBERTY.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2015 09:48 am
@RABEL222,
And then wait till you hear what utter claptrap you get for saying it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1274321

RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2015 02:01 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
And the saddest thing is the U S of A government covered it up piously claiming it was a mistake. The bastards attacked it knowing it was an american ship but as usual dident give a shyt because it was for the good of Israel. Fuke the dead
Americans. They were just colateral damage. And I dont give a shyt about the Isralie lovers on this site.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2015 04:28 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
That is a phenomenally great question. Pollard stole information that was only of interest to the USSR and sent it to Israel. To this day, Israel has refused to tell us what they did with the information. Intelligence analysts believe that Israel was packing it up and selling it to the USSR to get emigration rights for Russian Jews, but they've never proven it. Still, why did Pollard take US submarine data? During the Cold War, submarine interactions were pretty much daily events with both sides playing hard ball under the water. This information wasn't just laying around. Pollard went and got it and sent it to someone who shouldn't care, but for some reason did. To me this is tremendously damning.

It does sound suspicious.



I guess Rumsfeld doesn't share the opinion that it would have been reasonable to release Pollard later in his prison term.

Note the last part of the article. The government has no choice but to release him after 30 years, because that's what the law requires.


engineer wrote:
Where are your links for the "leftwingers"?

No links. It's just my personal experience when dealing with anti-Semitic Leftwingers that they always rant vehemently about Pollard.

This doesn't apply to all Leftwingers, just to the anti-Semitic ones.

For all I know it might also apply to anti-Semitic Rightwingers too. It's just that when I encounter anti-Semites on the internet they tend to always be Leftwingers.

I do know that there are such things as Rightwing anti-Semites though, even though I never seem to encounter them.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2015 04:33 pm
@engineer,
I agree with you in this thread except in that I don't consider the punishment appropriate. Yes he was a prolific mole for hire. But if I were to punish this kind of thing I wouldn't consider more than 10-15 years as a reasonable max.

Your position on this is informed and thoughtful, I'm interested in hearing why you think he has been treated "fairly". Is it just because that is a legally reasonable punishment for the crimes he was guilty of or do you also agree with the severity of the punishment for such actions?
 

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