uhh alots been happening
Wow alot has happend in this forum while I have been asleep,
Lekatt wrote:
"We can begin with the thought that randomness started the chain of evolution. But just a quick look around you determines the universe to be one of order not randomness. So where did the randomness go, or better yet was it really ever there in the first place? Order means some sort of intelligence is directing the universe around us, keeping the planets on track, the seasons in order, etc. So where did the randomness go? What changed it into order, but some form of intelligence? After you come up with a good answer for that, I will show you more."
At a point in time the universe was at very high energy levels.
High energy = chaos
As the universe cooled this chaos theory declines leaving more and more order in the place of chaos. Take for example a cup of tea (being from England I have to use that as an example) There is no way we can predict the movement of the molecules which make up this cup of tea because they are at high energy levels. If we were to freeze the cup of tea we can strongly predict that the molecules will stop moving.
It will be the same for our earth eventually, energy is what controls how random or predictable something is. Once our sun dies, and the earth completely cools there will be no weather pattern for the weather men to predict. The world will be in a low energy state and will become very predictable.
To say there must be some sort of intelligent control of the world around us makes no sense to me at all. Order and chaos exist side by side they have shaped the universe.
Thoughts?
Hmm...first off, even in a frozen liquid, the molecules are still moving, just very slowly. As for the universe, it's balance revolves around it being in a constant state of flux. Order and chaos, yin and yang. I'm with you on those thoughts. As for an intelligence that controls the world, I say, look at Dubya and draw your own conclusions.
For those who enjoyed my subtle shaving humour, here is the hidden meaning behind it:
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html
whats dubya ?
The point I was making about the liquid and the solid refers to the high enery low energy sitution. The molecules in a frozen cuppa tea dont move they just vibrate they are locked in a structure once you add more energy they move more and more and become more unpredictable.
"So where did the randomness go? What changed it into order, but some form of intelligence? After you come up with a good answer for that, I will show you more."
I mainly want to hear Lekatt opinion on this as I want to be shown more
Heh heh, 'Dubya' is a derogotary term for George W. Bush. I happen to agree with you that while the universe may be balanced, it is not 'ordered' by any means.
I agree with you it is not ordered, sorry if I came across as saying it was, I belive randomness is one of the constributing factos to our existence. A saying I like is:
"if you put a million monkeys in a room with type writers, and leave them for enternity, one day, one of them would write a Shakespear play"
Setanta wrote:Lekatt, you ever read The Sea Wolf by London? God, that happy birds and flowers nonsense is a laugh riot ! ! !
You choose to see order in the world around you--it does not exist outside your mind, with the sad exception of the rather mediocre job which society does of promoting "orderliness."
Yes, I read it years ago, can't remember much.
I am open to all spins, please show me a few instances of randomness in our world. So I can see what you see.
Remember, if you watch a busy street with people going in all directions at once, it is still not random, each person is going about their plan for the day. A intelligent plan I hope.
Also remember our world can not be part random and part not, that would be illogical.
Show me some examples of randomness.
Love
Re: uhh alots been happening
donohue100 wrote:Wow alot has happend in this forum while I have been asleep,
Lekatt wrote:
"We can begin with the thought that randomness started the chain of evolution. But just a quick look around you determines the universe to be one of order not randomness. So where did the randomness go, or better yet was it really ever there in the first place? Order means some sort of intelligence is directing the universe around us, keeping the planets on track, the seasons in order, etc. So where did the randomness go? What changed it into order, but some form of intelligence? After you come up with a good answer for that, I will show you more."
At a point in time the universe was at very high energy levels.
High energy = chaos
As the universe cooled this chaos theory declines leaving more and more order in the place of chaos. Take for example a cup of tea (being from England I have to use that as an example) There is no way we can predict the movement of the molecules which make up this cup of tea because they are at high energy levels. If we were to freeze the cup of tea we can strongly predict that the molecules will stop moving.
It will be the same for our earth eventually, energy is what controls how random or predictable something is. Once our sun dies, and the earth completely cools there will be no weather pattern for the weather men to predict. The world will be in a low energy state and will become very predictable.
To say there must be some sort of intelligent control of the world around us makes no sense to me at all. Order and chaos exist side by side they have shaped the universe.
Thoughts?
You seem to be saying chaos contains order, a sort of ordered chaos. A simile would be black contains white, then black becomes white when it cools down. Not very logical, chaos will be chaos until something changes it into order, and that something is intelligence. chaos has no mind, no thought, no agenda. Chaos is simple chaos until it is changed by intelligence and becomes order.
But all things aside, look outside your theories and observe the ordered world you live in. We would not, could not, live one minute in the middle of chaos. Our world is ordered by a higher intelligence than we.
Love
Or perhaps just something we don't understand. That's a far cry from a 'god' of some sort.
The world is not in chaos simply because the energy levels have decreased to such an amount that a level of order has been reached. To say what I wrote is not logical, of course it is. How does that theory defiy logic please explain. To think order has been brought about by intelligence is ridicoulous, and to say chaos is simple.
The level of chaos decreases as energy levels decrease it makes perfect sense it is in no way illogical.
You are looking at chaos as if it is unchangable, the fact that we are alive today is because chaos has decreased.
An example of randomness?
People born of limited physical capabilities. Retarded, albino , missing limbs... that is random. That isnt order. If it was order we would be able to predict exactly who and when these things would happen in the life producing circle.
Chaos theory dictates that enough of one thing happens, after an amount of time you will get the result you desired. That isnt order, that is just random chaoitic results.
There was also something said about how the animals and people live in harmony on this planet and that was a symbol of order? If we are living in harmony why are we killing species off faster then they can reproduce? We are eliminating species because we are the dominate species. Domination isnt order, it is the strength of one side of chaos.
oy. i am re-reading my post. imnot sure i got my point across... ??? :-(
Genetic mutations occur ramdomly, which is the engine which drives natural selection--i suspect that much of the objection which religionists have to a theory of "natural selection" is entailed in a rejection of the concept of randomness, because it attacks a basic principle to which they cling as to their very survival.
Either you pointedly decided to ignore my caveat about human attempts to create an orderly society, or you just don't get it. Looking at "a busy street" does not tell us anything about the underlying mechanisms of the cosmos. It only demonstrates what i have already alluded to, that humans seek to impose order on their surroundings. That humans are obsessed with imposing order on their perceptions of the world does not logically mean the the world is ordered as their preceptions attempt to describe it.
I referred to Jack London's novel because of the protagonist, Wolf Larsen, is described as a sort of elemental creature, and sees life as a chaotic process, and his view is the polar opposite of the happy picture you paint of an orderly world. The most famous lines in the novel happen to contain a passage (which i will emphasize) which rather ironically attributes chaos to god:
Once more the Ghost bore away before the storm, this time so submerging herself that for some seconds I thought she would never reappear. Even the wheel, quite a deal higher than the waist, was covered and swept again and again. At such moments I felt strangely alone with God, alone with him and watching the chaos of his wrath. And then the wheel would reappear, and Wolf Larsen's broad shoulders, his hands gripping the spokes and holding the schooner to the course of his will, himself an earth god, dominating the storm, flinging its descending waters from him and riding it to his own ends. And oh, the marvel of it! The marvel of it! That tiny men should live and breathe and work, and drive so frail a contrivance of wood and cloth through so tremendous and elemental strife!
I also find that interesting as it suggests that god in his (hers? its?) kindliness provides us with the comfort and security of order; but that same deity expresses "wrath" by creating chaos. Both are quaint views in my opinion.
Larsen's view is that life is simply a grand chaos, life feeding off of other life, "a yeast" of the successful competition preying upon and eating the "losers." It is a view diametrically opposed yours of an orderly nature.
No the evidence of order does not surround us. I do not subscribe to London's views, and even less to those of his character Larsen. My point in bringing it up is that any analysis of the relative "order" to be found in the cosmos which does not proceed from a verifiable and replicable examination of the available data is simply the imposition of our fondestly held philosophical views on a universe which is indifferent to us.
You believe the world is orderly, and that the proof is in the evidence of your eyes. I submit to you that absent your religious philosophy of that order, you would not see it. I further submit that your very peace of mind rests upon an assumption that a deity has created all, including that order, and that you cannot abandon the notion without abandoning your life's philosophy altogether. Personally, the thought of surviving in a chaotic atmosphere of the collision of events is not upsetting to me.
Setanta wrote:Personally, the thought of surviving in a chaotic atmosphere of the collision of events is not upsetting to me.
Rather refreshing and freeing, ain't it?
Lekatt, I am going to jump to the next level here with you, since I believe you guys could be arguing about whether the world is chaotic or orderly until Jesus comes down on a unicorn and passes out heaven-sent chocolate kisses to all of us. Plus, I'm going away for the weekend in a few hours and I'm dying to see what you'll come up with next.
So, let's just assume that the world is not chaotic or random, for the sake of argument. There is an order to the universe. How do you make the leap from that to the existence of an all-seeing, all-knowing God that created all of this?
Jer wrote:Rather refreshing and freeing, ain't it?
It's a great life, Boss, if you don't falter . . .
Actually the question of whether the universe is chaotic or ordered, contributes practically nothing to the either prove or disprove the validity of modern notions about the evolution of species. By introducing the false lead, Lekatt has derailed and redirected the subject. Rather than try to offer anything relevant to her contention that evolution is "easily disproven" she has move the discussion to a different topic. Specifically what does the nature of the whole universe have to do with how species originate and evolve?
Creationists have long claimed that each species is unique and unchanging. One day there was a sterile world with no life upon it. The next, there was vegetation, animals of all sorts, and Man. The vegetation on that first day was the same as we see around us today. The first Giraffe would be virtually identical to the one we saw the other day at the zoo. The influenza viruses that strike us each year have been around since that first glorious day of creation. One might ask why we are attacked by successive viral infections, each similar to the last but different? Has each of those viruses somehow remained hidden and innocuous until "Order" sets them, one after another, to killing people?
How do Creationists account for human "improvement" of some species? Dogs have long been bred to accentuate one characteristic or another. We've bred them to hunt, to fish, to retrieve, to herd, and to decorate the laps of church ladies. We breed cattle so that some will give more milk, and others will have more eatable muscle. We breed some horses to race and others to pull plows. We cross horses with donkeys to produce mules of great strength and endurance. Yet the creationists would have us believe that all the animal types have remained unchanged since the first day.
We are also told by the creationists that humans today are physically the same as those who miracalously appeared in the Garden of Eden. That must mean that the different "races" are separate, and that the notion of a unified Homo Sapiens is wrong. Whites, Blacks, Reds and Yellows are all different and have been from the beginning. Being different, it is certainly possible, nay probable that one "race" is superior to the others. This sort of cockeyed reasoning "justifies" racism. For one "race" to have offspring with another "race" is defying "God's Will". To go against the natural Order, is to defy God. Think of the mischief and suffering this sort of Abrahamic nonsense has caused the world!
Anyone who has tried to sit in the spacious seat of a Roman will find themselves more cramped than if they fly coach. Modern humans are taller and thicker than those of even a hundred years ago.
Species did not suddenly appear. They do interbreed successfully, and the off-spring may have very different characteristics than their parents. Sometimes the characteristics will make the plant or animal (including Homo Sap) better competitors in the fight for survival. Sometimes the new characteristics are unsuccessful, and that whole line of evolution will disappear. Successful breeds tend to expand in size, while others shrink. Sometimes the changes may take a generation, or they may take thousands of years. Humans haven't been around nearly so long as life has existed on this planet, and many of those that once dominated the world now are vanished but for their bones.
We humans have been more successful than most others, largely because we have managed to exercise some control over our environment. We have social structures that permit us to operate in very large, well-organized packs. We have adopted tools and technology far beyond a stick and a stone. We have turned the night into day, and can moderate the outside climate with fire and refrigeration. We can out run any animal, though we are as individuals pitifully slow. In taking so much control of our environment, we have temporarily slowed evolution for ourselves ... but we have not stopped the process.
Our successes can also be our downfall. Overpopulation at some point will lead to famine. If we become too dependant upon modern technology, and it should fail then many will be unable to survive. We have "conquered" many diseases, but in the process we have lost much of our natural immunity. Anti-biotics are becoming ineffective as microbes evolve to become tolerant of them. TB is making a comeback in some parts of the world. If Small Pox were to get loose in the modern world, perhaps as much as 1/3 of the human race could perish. The Spanish Lady killed more than the Great War. American Indian populations were driven almost into extinction by disease far more than by any conscious policy of genocide. We are still subject to evolution, and to stick our heads into the sand is a dangerous policy indeed.
I will be very surprised if anyone follows up on your post Asherman...
Another good one!
donohue100 wrote:The world is not in chaos simply because the energy levels have decreased to such an amount that a level of order has been reached. To say what I wrote is not logical, of course it is. How does that theory defiy logic please explain. To think order has been brought about by intelligence is ridicoulous, and to say chaos is simple.
The level of chaos decreases as energy levels decrease it makes perfect sense it is in no way illogical.
You are looking at chaos as if it is unchangable, the fact that we are alive today is because chaos has decreased.
Doesn't make sense to me. If there is chaos and high energy the chaos moves faster, but when the energy lowers the chaos moves slower. It would still be chaos, energy does not change chaos into order less of course the energy is intelligent. Change does not take place without something to do the changing. To believe otherwise is not rational.
This appears to be one of those contradictions in scientific doctrine.
What makes you think change can take place without a catalist?
If you had water moving randomly then suddenly froze it, would you have order, of course not, you would have nothing. No order or no chaos.
Love
Asherman wrote:Actually the question of whether the universe is chaotic or ordered, contributes practically nothing to the either prove or disprove the validity of modern notions about the evolution of species. By introducing the false lead, Lekatt has derailed and redirected the subject. Rather than try to offer anything relevant to her contention that evolution is "easily disproven" she has move the discussion to a different topic. Specifically what does the nature of the whole universe have to do with how species originate and evolve?
Creationists have long claimed that each species is unique and unchanging. One day there was a sterile world with no life upon it. The next, there was vegetation, animals of all sorts, and Man. The vegetation on that first day was the same as we see around us today. The first Giraffe would be virtually identical to the one we saw the other day at the zoo. The influenza viruses that strike us each year have been around since that first glorious day of creation. One might ask why we are attacked by successive viral infections, each similar to the last but different? Has each of those viruses somehow remained hidden and innocuous until "Order" sets them, one after another, to killing people?
How do Creationists account for human "improvement" of some species? Dogs have long been bred to accentuate one characteristic or another. We've bred them to hunt, to fish, to retrieve, to herd, and to decorate the laps of church ladies. We breed cattle so that some will give more milk, and others will have more eatable muscle. We breed some horses to race and others to pull plows. We cross horses with donkeys to produce mules of great strength and endurance. Yet the creationists would have us believe that all the animal types have remained unchanged since the first day.
We are also told by the creationists that humans today are physically the same as those who miracalously appeared in the Garden of Eden. That must mean that the different "races" are separate, and that the notion of a unified Homo Sapiens is wrong. Whites, Blacks, Reds and Yellows are all different and have been from the beginning. Being different, it is certainly possible, nay probable that one "race" is superior to the others. This sort of cockeyed reasoning "justifies" racism. For one "race" to have offspring with another "race" is defying "God's Will". To go against the natural Order, is to defy God. Think of the mischief and suffering this sort of Abrahamic nonsense has caused the world!
Anyone who has tried to sit in the spacious seat of a Roman will find themselves more cramped than if they fly coach. Modern humans are taller and thicker than those of even a hundred years ago.
Species did not suddenly appear. They do interbreed successfully, and the off-spring may have very different characteristics than their parents. Sometimes the characteristics will make the plant or animal (including Homo Sap) better competitors in the fight for survival. Sometimes the new characteristics are unsuccessful, and that whole line of evolution will disappear. Successful breeds tend to expand in size, while others shrink. Sometimes the changes may take a generation, or they may take thousands of years. Humans haven't been around nearly so long as life has existed on this planet, and many of those that once dominated the world now are vanished but for their bones.
We humans have been more successful than most others, largely because we have managed to exercise some control over our environment. We have social structures that permit us to operate in very large, well-organized packs. We have adopted tools and technology far beyond a stick and a stone. We have turned the night into day, and can moderate the outside climate with fire and refrigeration. We can out run any animal, though we are as individuals pitifully slow. In taking so much control of our environment, we have temporarily slowed evolution for ourselves ... but we have not stopped the process.
Our successes can also be our downfall. Overpopulation at some point will lead to famine. If we become too dependant upon modern technology, and it should fail then many will be unable to survive. We have "conquered" many diseases, but in the process we have lost much of our natural immunity. Anti-biotics are becoming ineffective as microbes evolve to become tolerant of them. TB is making a comeback in some parts of the world. If Small Pox were to get loose in the modern world, perhaps as much as 1/3 of the human race could perish. The Spanish Lady killed more than the Great War. American Indian populations were driven almost into extinction by disease far more than by any conscious policy of genocide. We are still subject to evolution, and to stick our heads into the sand is a dangerous policy indeed.
I see you neatly sidestepped the issue by saying "the question of whether the universe is chaotic or ordered, contributes practically nothing to the either prove or disprove the validity of modern notions about the evolution of species. "
In fact it has everything to do with evolution which could have never taken place in a state of chaos. It is evolution itself that doesn't matter. How this world came about, whether evolution and/or creation doesn't negate the order and intelligence we see in the universe today. Things don't just happen for no reason at all. Gee, if this really were a random world why do lawyers keep filing law suits all over the place, don't they know that things just happen randomly.
You are trying to defend what can not be defended. This is a world of order and was such as far back as we can see. There is no reason to believe randomness every existed in the universe.
What that points to is an intelligence far greater than man.
Love
