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Why all religion is pointless

 
 
Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 12:14 pm
Gala wrote:
lekatt, by dismissing the cogent remarks of the others by saying they are frivilous leads me to believe what you are really saying is "My truth is the only worthy path."



What I said is truth is the important thing. I don't have all the truth, only a wee bit. But you can see why I shouldn't post anymore. There seems to be a believe that this world is random, even while that position can not be shown.

I detect a high degree of resentment concerning a higher intelligence. Note I never said God, one must be very careful to listen and then speak only to the words posted, not to assumptions of what those words mean.

Love
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2004 04:14 pm
It is said that those who believe in a loving Creator G-d have to explain why there is so much suffering on Earth.
Those who do not believe in such a G-d have to explain Everything else.
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donohue100
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 02:42 am
quote lekatt:

"Doesn't make sense to me. If there is chaos and high energy the chaos moves faster, but when the energy lowers the chaos moves slower. It would still be chaos, energy does not change chaos into order less of course the energy is intelligent. Change does not take place without something to do the changing. To believe otherwise is not rational."

lol I said nothing about chaos moving faster, chaos is not a substance, I was refering to an object moving fast being chaotic. Intelligence has nothing to do with chaos, so what your saying is if I throw a dice, the energy I have put into the dice is intelligent and the intelligent energy makes the dice less chaotic making it land on a number. Chaos is not a substance, you are referring to chaos as if its a real object. Chaos is a term to decribe how pedictable or un-predictable something is. For example you have said: "if there is chaos and high energy", the chaos would not be there if it was not for the high energy levels.

Let me put it another way, two people playing tennis, one serves the ball, the ball is now in a chaotic state now it is at a higher energy level, it is much harder to predict what it will do. Once the ball lands and rolls to a stop the energy decreases and it becomes very predictable that the ball will stay on the ground. No higher intelligence has been involved in this change of chaos.

Lekatt wrote: "energy does not change chaos into order less of course the energy is intelligent. Change does not take place without something to do the changing. To believe otherwise is not rational."

So your telling my the energy I put into the tennis ball has thought about slowing down and becoming less chaotic and then decided right its time to stop now, uhh there I go im stopping, look everyone Ive stopped.

Wow an intelligent spirit contained in a tennis ball,

fascinating, errr.....
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 07:51 am
Lekatt wrote:
It happens for no reason at all in randomness. No matter how you try to argue for randomness, that argument will fail. Carbon dating depends on order, physical laws depends on order, science depends on order, even evolution depends on order.


Here again, you rely upon a statement from authority, and the only authority in evidence is your assertion of your opinion. In fact, carbon dating depends up the degredation of a specific carbon isotope--precisely because it is not in a steady state, it is possible to know how long it has been since the carbon containing the isotope was included in the item being dated.

You are either incapable of assimilating the concept, or are willfully ignoring that the order of which you speak is imposed by the observer. Physical laws do not depend on order, our expression of what we believe to be true about the physical universe depends upon an orderly expression which allows others to comprehend. The universe is supremely indifferent to your existence or mine. Certainly science, and any theoretical sub-set of science such as evolution depend upon order--but it is the order imposed by the observer to facilitate comprehension. In the specific case of evolution, mutations occur randomly. If in the presence of such random mutations, the environmental circumstances in which the studied species exists have change in such a way as to favor the reproductive opportunity of the mutated individuals, natural selection will occur. If not, than the mutated individuals have no enhanced breeding opportunity, or even less opportunity, and will only recur in the species as a random mutation.

I rather think the idea of a lack of order frightens you. Why cannot you conceive of the possibility that randomness facilitates the development of life forms, and that the inability to change spells death, sooner or later, and very likely sooner rather than later, for the class under discussion?
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Gala
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 10:36 am
no, no high degree of resentment concerning a higher intelligence. i am, however, highly skeptical of anyone who throws out a platitude such as "truth is the only worthy path" after not taking into account, or acknowledging any of the countering observations/thoughts/arguments being posed to you.

in my estimation, religion fails miserably when it comes to acknowledging feelings of the individual. what i mean by this is i've stated what my feelings are about spirit, and you've brushed it off by telling me i am lacking, and you end that with the incomprehensibly glib remark about truth.

i ask you, what good did talk like this do for that woman in texas who one-by-one killed her 5 children? she and her husband were extremely religious, but as she fell deeper and deeper into depression, the only care she received was from the scriptures, she was told she was weak, otherwise. as far as i can see, that is neglect in the greatest sense. they ignored the woman and herded her into the pen with "the word."
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Lekatt
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 11:21 am
I leave you with a dictionary definition of randomness so you can apply it to your posts.


RANDOM, HAPHAZARD, CASUAL mean determined by accident rather than design. RANDOM stresses lack of definite aim, fixed goal, or regular procedure *a random selection of books*. HAPHAZARD applies to what is done without regard for regularity or fitness or ultimate consequence *a haphazard collection of rocks*. CASUAL suggests working or acting without deliberation, intention, or purpose.

If you believe the world is random, then there is no meaning, consequenses, or purpose of living life.

My world is not like that, adieu.

Love
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 11:23 am
Bye . . . don't let the door hit ya in the ass . . .


" . . . lack of definite aim, fixed goal or regular procedure . . . "--perfect . . .
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 11:28 am
Lekatt,

Your view is that in a random world there is no meaning, consequence, or purpose of living life.

My view is that in a random world I get to decide what the meaning is and find my purpose in life, rather than living my life for someone/something else.

Lekatt wrote:
If you believe the world is random, then there is no meaning, consequenses, or purpose of living life.

My world is not like that, adieu.

Love
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 11:30 am
Lekatt wrote:
I leave you with a dictionary definition of randomness so you can apply it to your posts.


RANDOM, HAPHAZARD, CASUAL mean determined by accident rather than design. RANDOM stresses lack of definite aim, fixed goal, or regular procedure *a random selection of books*. HAPHAZARD applies to what is done without regard for regularity or fitness or ultimate consequence *a haphazard collection of rocks*. CASUAL suggests working or acting without deliberation, intention, or purpose.

If you believe the world is random, then there is no meaning, consequenses, or purpose of living life.

My world is not like that, adieu.



Love


Good. Personally, I think challenges in life make us stronger. Part of that is accepting that the universe is not ordered, nor can we force it into our own personal perspectives. While your definitions are sound, your conclusion is completely off-base if you assume that those who do not define the world as you do are incapable of finding any meaning in it. All actions contain meaning, consequences, and inspire the individual to a purpose, whether or not you believe in a creator, an ordered universe, or chaos theory. That's what it means to be HUMAN.
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kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 11:44 am
Is it possible that the world does work in some kind of ordered fashion that is just too big for us to see? For instance, if we look at ourselves as cells in a body (the body representing the universe), can't you imagine the possibility that there might be some higher order that we are just too insignificant and small to see?
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Gala
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 11:48 am
adieu, and if the phone don't ring, you know it's me.
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donohue100
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2004 02:27 am
lekatt you could at least try answering some of the questions that have been thrown your way. We have tried our best to answer your querys, you have just brushed off and ignored any significant questions that challenge your theory.
0 Replies
 
apmom1266
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2004 10:27 pm
Re: Why all religion is pointless
suka75038 wrote:
Ask a lot of "why?". That is the most important question there is.


In my early childhood the majority of people around me(family) were Catholic. I did ask a lot of "why" questions; I asked a lot of questions period, my mom said I was born a very inquisitive child. You see, I didn't choose to "become" atheist, I was born that way. It was the punishment for the questions, the searching for "truth", and reading the Bible that simply reinforced it. It was only after reading other religious texts that I came to realize that religion can be a dangerous thing.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 09:57 am
Sometimes I just satisfy myself with the idea that the religion isnt dangerous.. it is the people in it that are.
hehe.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 10:03 am
Kicky I read a story once that had that premise. Can't remember the name though.
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kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 10:08 am
Which premise?
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 04:31 pm
Re: Why all religion is pointless
apmom1266 wrote:
In my early childhood the majority of people around me(family) were Catholic. I did ask a lot of "why" questions; I asked a lot of questions period, my mom said I was born a very inquisitive child. You see, I didn't choose to "become" atheist, I was born that way. It was the punishment for the questions, the searching for "truth", and reading the Bible that simply reinforced it. It was only after reading other religious texts that I came to realize that religion can be a dangerous thing.

Asking questions reminds me of the story Little Bessie.
Quote:
Little Bessie
by Mark Twain
from Fables of Man
Mark Twain Papers Series
University of California Press


Chapter 1
Little Bessie Would Assist Providence

Little Bessie was nearly three years old. She was a good child, and not shallow, not frivolous, but meditative and thoughtful, and much given to thinking out the reasons of things and trying to make them harmonise with results. One day she said --

"Mamma, why is there so much pain and sorrow and suffering? What is it all for?"

It was an easy question, and mamma had no difficulty in answering it:

"It is for our good, my child. In His wisdom and mercy the Lord sends us these afflictions to discipline us and make us better."

"Is it He that sends them?"

"Yes."

"Does He send all of them, mamma?"

"Yes, dear, all of them. None of them comes by accident; He alone sends them, and always out of love for us, and to make us better."

"Isn't it strange!"

"Strange? Why, no, I have never thought of it in that way. I have not heard any one call it strange before. It has always seemed natural and right to me, and wise and most kindly and merciful."

"Who first thought of it like that, mamma? Was it you?"

"Oh, no, child, I was taught it."

"Who taught you so, mamma?"

"Why, really, I don't know -- I can't remember. My mother, I suppose; or the preacher. But it's a thing that everybody knows."

"Well, anyway, it does seem strange. Did He give Billy Norris the typhus?"

"Yes."

"What for?"

"Why, to discipline him and make him good."

"But he died, mamma, and so it couldn't make him good."

"Well, then, I suppose it was for some other reason. We know it was a good reason, whatever it was."

"What do you think it was, mamma?"

"Oh, you ask so many questions! I think; it was to discipline his parents."

"Well, then, it wasn't fair, mamma. Why should his life be taken away for their sake, when he wasn't doing anything?"

"Oh, I don't know! I only know it was for a good and wise and merciful reason."

"What reason, mamma?"

"I think -- I think -- well, it was a judgment; it was to punish them for some sin they had committed."

"But he was the one that was punished, mamma. Was that right?"

"Certainly, certainly. He does nothing that isn't right and wise and merciful. You can't understand these things now, dear, but when you are grown up you will understand them, and then you will see that they are just and wise."

After a pause:

"Did He make the roof fall in on the stranger that was trying to save the crippled old woman from the fire, mamma?"

"Yes, my child. Wait! Don't ask me why, because I don't know. I only know it was to discipline some one, or be a judgment upon somebody, or to show His power."

"That drunken man that stuck a pitchfork into Mrs. Welch's baby when -- "

"Never mind about it, you needn't go into particulars; it was as to discipline the child -- that much is certain, anyway."

"Mamma, Mr. Burgess said in his sermon that billions of little creatures are sent into us to give us cholera, and typhoid, and lockjaw, and more than a thousand other sicknesses and -- mamma, does He send them?"

"Oh, certainly, child, certainly. Of course."

"What for?"

"Oh, to discipline us! haven't I told you so, over and over again?"

"It's awful cruel, mamma! And silly! and if I -- "

"Hush, oh hush! do you want to bring the lightning?"

"You know the lightning did come last week, mamma, and struck the new church, and burnt it down. Was it to discipline the church?"

(Wearily). "Oh, I suppose so."

"But it killed a hog that wasn't doing anything. Was it to discipline the hog, mamma?"

"Dear child, don't you want to run out and play a while? If you would like to -- "
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 07:49 pm
Bravo! I hadn't read that before.

We should all raise Twain...
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 08:07 pm
Kicky, goes something like this. A man is on an operating table in Edwardian England. As he slips into a comatose state he starts rising, off the table, above London, into space. And as he rises he feels himself becoming larger and as he passes the sun it is as small as his toenail. Finally he finds himself growing into a whole new giant world where our sun is a nucleus of an atom of a carbon particle on a piece of burned toast.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 10:48 pm
Aah, I see. It's like that conversation in Animal House when they smoke the joint with their professor. About how insignificant we could really be, in the big, big, BIG scheme of things.
0 Replies
 
 

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