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what is uhhh...

 
 
BonJovial
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 07:57 am
stand up for pessimism wrote:
And they're supposed to be pure beautiful, but pure evil?



I never heard that they were evil.
I thought sirens were exactly what sozobe said; that their songs were supposed to lure sailors to their death. Like mermaids.

Ulysses and the Sirens, from the Odyssey, Homer's ancient greek myth
Address:http://www.2020site.org/ulysses/sirens.html

Can I ask Why we're doing this brainstorming? Smile
(just curious)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 08:06 am
They're beautiful, and killing guys is kinda ya know evil.

It's become the equivalent of "femme fatale." Marlene Deitrich was said to be a "screen siren." Etc.

They weren't exactly pure evil though.
0 Replies
 
BonJovial
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 08:11 am
sozobe wrote:
They're beautiful, and killing guys is kinda ya know evil.



Oh damn! I knew there was a catch.
Wink
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 08:25 am
:-D
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:16 am
But, weren't they more just creatures without evil intent? Is it evil when a lion kills a man?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:22 am
Lil' Kay, the Sirens are first mentioned in The Odyssey, putatively the work of the blind bard Homer.

And the colors of the sea blind your eyes with trembling mermaids,
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses:
How his naked ears were tortured by the sirens sweetly singing,
For the sparkling waves are calling you to kiss their white laced lips.


(Eric Clapton and Martin Sharp)

If there were a previous tradition about the Sirens and what they were, i don't believe anyone has any evidence of it more than 2500 years after The Odyssey was written.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:29 am
I'm not sure what your point is, set....?

I know they are women, but I thought they were considered less than human (less then mermaid, even).
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:33 am
Then there are the Lorelei, the German equivalent of the sirens. Where did the Lorelei originate?
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:37 am
Quote:
According to German legend, there was once a beautiful young maiden, named Lorelei, who threw herself headlong into the river in despair over a faithless lover. Upon her death she was transformed into a siren and could from that time on be heard singing on a rock along the Rhine River, near St. Goar. Her hypnotic music lured sailors to their death. The legend is based on an echoing rock with that name near Sankt Goarshausen, Germany.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:40 am
In Ireland it's the merrows who act as sirens. More with their beauty than with their song.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:41 am
Wow! LittleK. Thanks. So much nicer to get info from someone here rather than go to the web all the time.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:42 am
Letty - I agree!
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:43 am
Persephone was also supposed to be extremely beautiful, although she was not evil herself, but abducted by someone pure evil (Hades)...

I do not think of the sirens as being evil. It seems to me that they just are so beautiful, that men lose all reason and jump out of their boats trying to swim to them and drown. For that reason I saw the sirens to be innocent and oblivious.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:45 am
I'm just saying that there is no tradition of the existence of sirens before Homer. Homer does not describe them as anything other than female. If there were a belief in the existence of such creatures before Homer, no record now exists. It may well have existed before Homer, though.

http://www.2020site.org/ulysses/images/p329.gif

Here is a précis of the Homeric passage about the sirens at the site where i found that image:

These nymphs had the power, as has been already said, of charming by their song all who heard them, so that mariners were impelled to cast themselves into the sea to destruction. Circe directed Ulysses to stop the ears of his seamen with wax, so that they should not hear the strain; to have himself bound to the mast, and to enjoin his people, whatever he might say or do, by no means to release him till they should have passed the Sirens' island. Ulysses obeyed these directions. As they approached the Sirens' island, the sea was calm, and over the waters came notes of music so ravishing and attractive that Ulysses struggled to get loose and, by cries and signs to his people, begged to be released; but they, obedient to his previous orders, sprang forward and bound him still faster. They held on their course, and the music grew fainter till it ceased to be heard, when with joy Ulysses gave his companions the signal to unseal their ears; and they relieved him from his bonds. It is said that one of the Sirens, Parthenope, in grief at the escape of Ulysses drowned herself. Her body was cast up on the Italian shore where now stands the city of Naples, in early times called by the Siren's name.

In his mythology, Thomas Bullfinch tells us:

In Greek mythology, the Sirens are creatures with the head of a female and the body of a bird. They lived on an island (Sirenum scopuli; three small rocky islands) and with the irresistible charm of their song they lured mariners to their destruction on the rocks surrounding their island (Virgil V, 846; Ovid XIV, 88).

The Argonauts escaped them because when he heard their song, Orpheus immediately realized the peril they were in. He took out his lyre and sang a song so clear and ringing that it drowned the sound of those lovely fatal voices. When on another journey the Odysseus' ship passed the Sirens, had the sailors stuff their ears with wax. He had himself tied to the mast for he wanted to hear their beautiful voices. The Sirens sang when they approached, their words even more enticing than the melody. They would give knowledge to every man who came to them, they said, ripe wisdom and a quickening of the spirit. Odysseys' heart ran with longing but the ropes held him and the ship quickly sailed to safer waters (Odyssey XII, 39).

Homer mentions only two sirens, but later authors mention three or four. They were regarded as the daughters of Phorcys, or the storm god Achelous. According to Ovid, they were nymphs and the play-mates of Persephone. They were present when she was abducted and, because they did not interfere, Demeter changed them into birds with female faces (Ovid V, 551).


Both of the writers to whom he refers, Virgil and Ovid, are much later than Homer. The description of the sirens has been embellished since Homer's time.

In his translation of the Odyssey, Samuel Butler renders Circe's advice to Odysseus (he uses the latinate name Ullyses):

'So far so good,' said she, when I had ended my story, 'and now pay
attention to what I am about to tell you- heaven itself, indeed,
will recall it to your recollection. First you will come to the Sirens
who enchant all who come near them. If any one unwarily draws in too
close and hears the singing of the Sirens, his wife and children
will never welcome him home again, for they sit in a green field and
warble him to death with the sweetness of their song. There is a great
heap of dead men's bones lying all around, with the flesh still
rotting off them. Therefore pass these Sirens by, and stop your
men's ears with wax that none of them may hear; but if you like you
can listen yourself, for you may get the men to bind you as you
stand upright on a cross-piece half way up the mast, and they must
lash the rope's ends to the mast itself, that you may have the
pleasure of listening. If you beg and pray the men to unloose you,
then they must bind you faster.'


Here is Butler's translation of the passage in which Homer describes the encounter with the Sirens:

"Then, being much troubled in mind, I said to my men, 'My friends,
it is not right that one or two of us alone should know the prophecies
that Circe has made me, I will therefore tell you about them, so
that whether we live or die we may do so with our eyes open. First she
said we were to keep clear of the Sirens, who sit and sing most
beautifully in a field of flowers; but she said I might hear them
myself so long as no one else did. Therefore, take me and bind me to
the crosspiece half way up the mast; bind me as I stand upright,
with a bond so fast that I cannot possibly break away, and lash the
rope's ends to the mast itself. If I beg and pray you to set me
free, then bind me more tightly still.'
"I had hardly finished telling everything to the men before we
reached the island of the two Sirens, for the wind had been very
favourable. Then all of a sudden it fell dead calm; there was not a
breath of wind nor a ripple upon the water, so the men furled the
sails and stowed them; then taking to their oars they whitened the
water with the foam they raised in rowing. Meanwhile I look a large
wheel of wax and cut it up small with my sword. Then I kneaded the wax
in my strong hands till it became soft, which it soon did between
the kneading and the rays of the sun-god son of Hyperion. Then I
stopped the ears of all my men, and they bound me hands and feet to
the mast as I stood upright on the crosspiece; but they went on rowing
themselves. When we had got within earshot of the land, and the ship
was going at a good rate, the Sirens saw that we were getting in shore
and began with their singing.
"'Come here,' they sang, 'renowned Ulysses, honour to the Achaean
name, and listen to our two voices. No one ever sailed past us without
staying to hear the enchanting sweetness of our song- and he who
listens will go on his way not only charmed, but wiser, for we know
all the ills that the gods laid upon the Argives and Trojans before
Troy, and can tell you everything that is going to happen over the
whole world.'
"They sang these words most musically, and as I longed to hear
them further I made by frowning to my men that they should set me
free; but they quickened their stroke, and Eurylochus and Perimedes
bound me with still stronger bonds till we had got out of hearing of
the Sirens' voices. Then my men took the wax from their ears and
unbound me."


In his Metamorphoses, Ovid simply describes how the Sirens were created to punish Achelous, when the Gods turned his daughters into the Sirens. Ovid does not comment upon their nature, other than, as you can see above, that they became women with the bodies of birds.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:47 am
oy, thanks set, I'll try to read that when I'm not at work.

Stuh - yes, innocent and oblivious - that's the impression I got.
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