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They should have picked Dean.

 
 
Brand X
 
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2004 08:22 am
I have to agree... Dean would have been a better choice for the Dems. He better reflects their values and anger. He is a better speaker than John Kerry too, when he's not imploding. Plus, he at least has some experience as an administrator.


Quote:
They should have picked Dean

Debra J. Saunders
Friday, July 30, 2004



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Boston -- AT THE DEMOCRATIC National Convention, the gulf between rhetoric and reality is breathtaking.

John Kerry and his surrogates have spent the week telling America that if Kerry and John Edwards are elected, America will not go to war, as the script reads, "because we want to, we only go to war because we have to."

But Sens. Kerry and Edwards did not have to vote in favor of the resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. Yet they did.

Now they say they were misled -- which suggests that they now think America didn't have to go to war. Why should Americans listen to them now?

Bottom line: The Democratic Party did not have to nominate a candidate who supported the war, but Democratic voters for some reason chose to do so.

Item: According to a New York Times/CBS News poll, three-quarters of Democratic voters opposed the war.

Item: The same poll found that 86 percent of convention delegates opposed the war.

Item: 100 percent of the Democratic ticket voted with GOP President Bush on Iraq.

Nonetheless, this convention is packed with politicians who are boasting about the tremendous party unity they see everywhere. House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of San Francisco said that the party is more united than she has seen it in 40 years. Three in 4 Democrats disagree with the nominee on the biggest issue out there -- and that's unity?

"It's not just a toning down of rhetoric, but a turning inside-out of reality," said Massachusetts GOP politico Todd Domke.

No lie. Here's an example, a line from the Democratic Party platform chapter entitled "A Strong, Respected America," which faults members of the Bush administration because "They do not understand that real leadership means standing by your principles and rallying others to join you."

Au contraire, Bush understands leadership. He stood by his principles, he rallied Kerry and Edwards to join him, and he thereby brought the opposing party to his war.

Kerry and Edwards followed.

Bush led.

Veteran Kerry observer Domke told me months ago the Democrats should have picked Dean.

I now see how right Domke was.

I see it as I watch a group of well-meaning delegates gush about how excited they are, how united they are, because they chose a man with whom nearly 9 out of 10 of them disagree on the most fundamental issue -- the war.

It must hurt. The delegates can't argue their most deeply held belief -- that the war was wrong -- because they nominated a man who voted to authorize it.

Think: America is in the middle of a war, and speakers at the Democratic National Convention can't really address this war in an honest manner. Many can't say what they really believe.

They have to pretend they will go along with positions they detest.

For a campaign to succeed, Domke noted, its energy has to come from both the message and the candidate. "It turns out that with Howard Dean, (the Democrats) would have had not just a messenger they could believe, but a message that they obviously do believe in."

It's true that Thursday night showed America a man with a compelling story, a worthy biography and an admirable war record, but his story can't change the minds of those who disagree with his policies.

If the Democrats wanted an anti-war nominee, they should have picked one.

Instead, they chose a man who is committed to seeing the war in Iraq through.

They threw out their principles when they picked John Kerry. They wanted to win so badly that they have been willing to stake their party's future on a man whom they must attack in a matter of months, if he stays true to his words of today.

And how united will their party be then?

It's tragic -- I say, even though I support Bush -- to see committed people turn their back on their most cherished principles because they thought it was the clever way to beat Bush.


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bermbits
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 08:27 am
While I am not learned enough to discuss politics in depth, I am bothered by how the media can make or break a person by overemhasizing one thing. Right now, for example, Kerry's wife's "Shove it" comment is still in the news every day (while Cheney's comment to Sen. Leahy seems to have died a quiet death).

That said (and please forgive me if this has been said over and over beofre - I haven't been here for a long time), I believe the one thing that destroyed Dean was the playing over and over of "the scream." Why I have a problem with this is because "the scream" was isolated in one microphone and therefore seemed way loud - from another angle (rarely showed on TV), those in the room couldn't even hear a word he yelled - he was being drowned out by the raucous supporters.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:08 am
Quite true, bermbits.

Hey, long time - no see.
0 Replies
 
bermbits
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 09:14 am
YEah, it's been quite a while - I should be around a bit more trhese days.
Thanks.
0 Replies
 
bermbits
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 10:15 am
By the way, I am truly struggling with my vote this time around. Until recently, I was not going to vote for Kerry but against Bush. I don't want either one! A Libertarian vote is a vote for Bush, and I am not sure I can live with that either.

One of my biggest problems is I am a former National Guardsman (not International Guardsman), and I am seeing too many families being hurt if not destroyed by what I consider an absolutely inappropriate use of the Guard, no foresight in commitment, and politics as usual.
0 Replies
 
Sagamore
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 11:43 am
Bermbits-face it, either Bush or Kerry is going to be inaugurated next January. A vote for anyone else is wasting your vote. Bush has been a total failure. Kerry was not my first choice nor my second. But, he is not Bush and has spent his career doing his best to support American values and the Constitution. He is not the perfect choice, but he is clearly the better choice. We already know Bush is incompetent. Kerry may well be better. He can certainly be no worse.
0 Replies
 
bermbits
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 11:49 am
Sagamore - you prettty much said it.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 11:50 am
Kerry can and certainly would be worse. For one thing he is an enemy of the 2nd ammendment, so I can't see him as a defender of the constitution.
0 Replies
 
doglover
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 11:55 am
Kerry is an ememy of the second amendment. Confused

Dean is a loose canon, IMO.

My first choice for the Dems nominee was Wesley Clark. Kerry was my second choice. As for this election I'm all for Anybody But Bush.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 12:00 pm
The only wasted vote is a vote not made.

A vote for a third party candidtae is a vote of contention demonstrating a failure on the two large parties to support the needs of everyone. It is also a vote letting the government know that they are not fully representing the full population of the US.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 12:19 pm
Sagamore wrote:
We already know Bush is incompetent. Kerry may well be better. He can certainly be no worse.

Quite right. Bush is a proven failure. Kerry has yet to show the extent to which he is capable of failing. It's time to give the other guy a chance.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 12:21 pm
Four more years of hunting down bloodthirsty Islamic terrorists and making them pay with their lives, four more years of tax cuts that give people back more of their hard-earned money, four more years of the same economic growth we are currently experiencing.

Where's the failure?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 12:28 pm
Quote:
four more years of tax cuts that give people back more of their hard-earned money


I think there might be a little contention over several parts of these tax cuts - wisdom, effects, bias towards the rich, etc.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
bermbits
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 12:30 pm
McG - that is my quandary! I have regularly voted Libertarian, but I feel so strongl about ABB (anybody but Bush).

I can't give Bush a vote by voting my conscience.
(Re: 2nd Amendment, as a gun owner, I'll have to take my chances with Kerry and the NH tradition of Live Free.....)
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 12:35 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
four more years of tax cuts that give people back more of their hard-earned money


I think there might be a little contention over several parts of these tax cuts - wisdom, effects, bias towards the rich, etc.

Cycloptichorn


The only bias towards the rich is what the left has propagandized. The "poor" haven't actually paid taxes in years and they continue to pay no taxes. The rich received a tax cut, that means they pay less taxes. that's the purpose of a tax cut isn't it?

Now, if someone actually had to start paying more taxes because the rich were paying less, then you might have a point, but as they haven't, you have no case.

Now, they should have reversed some of the the tax cuts when we declared war as it was a sudden drain on the economy and I don't think anyone would have minded if it was promised to be re-imposed after the war was settled.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 12:46 pm
Quote:
The only bias towards the rich is what the left has propagandized. The "poor" haven't actually paid taxes in years and they continue to pay no taxes. The rich received a tax cut, that means they pay less taxes. that's the purpose of a tax cut isn't it?

Now, if someone actually had to start paying more taxes because the rich were paying less, then you might have a point, but as they haven't, you have no case.


I normally leave the tax discussions to those who are more well-informed than I am, but I can tell you about my thoughts on the subject.

From an objective perspective, it would seem to be a question of percentages.... you say that the poor don't pay taxes and will continue to not pay taxes. I, myself, work a half-time job in the morning and freelance during the day whilst I finish up some college classes. I pay about 17% taxes on what I bring in, with social security counted.

If that number was raised to 27%, I would not be able to effectively live my life. That would leave me no room to manuever, whatsoever, or to save money for a rainy day, whatever.

Compare to a relatively rich person. If you have, say, an income of 200k a year, and your taxes go up from 30% to 35%, your ability to support your family, etc, is basically unchanged. Sure, your ability to have as many toys as before is limited, but your basic situation is unchanged.

Comparatively, taxes mean just as much to the individuals who are paying them who happen to be poor as they do to those who are rich, if not more. Many of us exist at a level of income that does not allow enough room for real security. Therefore, let me say that the taxes paid by the poor, while perhaps not adding up to as much as those of just some of the rich, mean just as much to the people who are paying them, and should be considered to be just as important.

Therefore, when I see a rich man get a tax cut giving him an extra 50k a year, when our nation is in a deep deficit and our governmental spending is out of control, and my taxes remain the exact same as they were previously, I question the wisdom of this tax cut. The fact that the current admin has many, many ties to businesses and the elite in this country, who just happen to profit the most from this tax cut out of everyone, makes me question the wisdom of this tax cut.

Just my thoughts.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 12:53 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The only bias towards the rich is what the left has propagandized. The "poor" haven't actually paid taxes in years and they continue to pay no taxes. The rich received a tax cut, that means they pay less taxes. that's the purpose of a tax cut isn't it?

Now, if someone actually had to start paying more taxes because the rich were paying less, then you might have a point, but as they haven't, you have no case.


I normally leave the tax discussions to those who are more well-informed than I am, but I can tell you about my thoughts on the subject.

From an objective perspective, it would seem to be a question of percentages.... you say that the poor don't pay taxes and will continue to not pay taxes. I, myself, work a half-time job in the morning and freelance during the day whilst I finish up some college classes. I pay about 17% taxes on what I bring in, with social security counted.

If that number was raised to 27%, I would not be able to effectively live my life. That would leave me no room to manuever, whatsoever, or to save money for a rainy day, whatever.

Compare to a relatively rich person. If you have, say, an income of 200k a year, and your taxes go up from 30% to 35%, your ability to support your family, etc, is basically unchanged. Sure, your ability to have as many toys as before is limited, but your basic situation is unchanged.

Comparatively, taxes mean just as much to the individuals who are paying them who happen to be poor as they do to those who are rich, if not more. Many of us exist at a level of income that does not allow enough room for real security. Therefore, let me say that the taxes paid by the poor, while perhaps not adding up to as much as those of just some of the rich, mean just as much to the people who are paying them, and should be considered to be just as important.

Therefore, when I see a rich man get a tax cut giving him an extra 50k a year, when our nation is in a deep deficit and our governmental spending is out of control, and my taxes remain the exact same as they were previously, I question the wisdom of this tax cut.


I can see your point. The rich can afford to pay more, therefore they should. It doesn't matter how they made their money or how much they have sacrificed throughout their lives, they have more money now, so they should be forced to pay more.

When you file your tax return, do you get all your money back?

Quote:
The fact that the current admin has many, many ties to businesses and the elite in this country, who just happen to profit the most from this tax cut out of everyone, makes me question the wisdom of this tax cut.


What administration doesn't have ties with big business? You will have to go to la-la-land to find an American government that hasn't had ties with big business.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 01:08 pm
Quote:
I can see your point. The rich can afford to pay more, therefore they should. It doesn't matter how they made their money or how much they have sacrificed throughout their lives, they have more money now, so they should be forced to pay more.

When you file your tax return, do you get all your money back?


That sounds about right. I really don't care what the rich people did to get where they are at. It doesn't make a difference at all. Hell, many rich people inherit the majority of their money from their families. I see no reason why they should not be paying more back into the society which has given so much to them.

This doesn't even count the myriad ways in which the rich can avoid paying taxes due to the insane number of loopholes in our tax code, many of which are not an option to the poor. This only serves to heighten the inequities in the tax collection between the two groups.

When I file my tax return, I get some of my money back. Last year it was a pretty good check - almost 500 dollars. To give you a hint of my financial status, that's a lot of money to me these days.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 01:29 pm
An interesting article about taxes..

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jackkemp/jk20040802.shtml
0 Replies
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 06:20 pm
Kerry is a hunter. He was endorsed by the NRA. He's certainly no enemy of the 2nd amendment.
0 Replies
 
 

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