14
   

The tolerant atheist

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 07:52 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Beyond metaphysics though, my and your destination are the same: death. Allow me to prefer the journey to its destination, in this case.
As you wish. You are free to choose.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 07:58 am
@Leadfoot,
Indeed.

If the destination is all what matters to you in this case, you're welcome to hasten it... But something tells me you won't. Smile
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 08:06 am
@Olivier5,
Because of a misunderstanding about the destination, I did try that once. I'll only try it again if I get in too much physical pain. I will have no moral dilemmas about it though.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 08:44 am
@Olivier5,
There is no problem of 'referent' in the nonrepresentationalist view of language which has come to prevail philosophically. As an atheist, I of course agree with you about the utility of the word 'God', but our agreement is irrelevant to 'believers' who utilize it otherwise.
It would take another thread to expand on nonrepresenentationalism since we all tend to adopt a naive realistic mode in everyday usage with respect to what we call 'physical objects'.But perhaps we can get the sense of it with idea of long term impermanence of physical objects beyond our focal contexts. Thus today's 'fruit' at some point shifts to next week's 'mouldy heap' , thereby illustrating that utterance oc the word 'fruit' implies a contemporary range of potential relationships rather than a fixed set of properties possessed. Indeed 'properties' are in essence 'expectancies of our experience'
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 08:56 am
@fresco,
There's no such thing as a "nonrepresentationalist view of language". Those who pretend to hold such a view are just kidding themselves. That's because a "view" is nothing else than a "representation", and for obvious reasons you can't have a "nonrepresentationalist representation"...
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 09:19 am
@Olivier5,
Okay, just change the word 'view' to 'account'. I am talking about the 'on line' operation of 'languaging' .in context... a term which transcends a hypothetical scenario of examining 'objects' which for off line purposes, losing the original context, we might refer to as 'signs and symbols'
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 09:24 am
@fresco,
An 'account' is a representation too, when used in the phrase "an account of X or Y". X or Y are the referent. Sorry to burst your buble.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 09:37 am
@Olivier5,
Fine. You stick to your posture of naive realism, while I attempt to transcend it.
Just bear in mind that your sympathy with 'spirituality' which I think you expressed above seems more likely to be satisfied in my direction, rather than yours.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 09:52 am
@fresco,
You don't transcend anything. You are just kidding yourself. There's a difference.

Try to think about it with a fresh perspective. What is language useful for? Why do you use it here and now, on A2K, while making posts? Is it to make some noise pleasant to the ear, like when playing the guitar, or is it to convey some meaning, some sense?

When you speak of agreement, do you mean agreement about some sound ("nice music!"), about some cute drawings on a page ("nice fonts!"), or agreement about what they mean ("nice idea!")?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 10:16 am
@Olivier5,
What is going on here is a mixture recreational dancing and aggressive posturing. Not a single mind is likely to be changed with respect to the thread title. In my case I attend for bit of mental exercise and sometimes benefit from the exchange of references. I have even done so from you as others have from me. But the rowdy atmosphere of this club, is a different ball game to the real life philosophy group I attend where the exigencies of face to face exchanges rule out discourteous behavior.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 10:32 am
@fresco,
You mean that the people you talk to in real life are too polite to say you are kidding yourself?

Maybe that's because the real aim of these meetings is NOT to do philosophy, but "social dancing"? I also try not to step on anybody's foot when I dance... If philosophy is a subset of choregraphy, it follows that we should all try and follow the same music.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 10:40 am
@Olivier5,
Good point perhaps. However, the fact that you have two left feet seems to have escaped you.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 11:15 am
@fresco,
You mean I can't do the "social dancing" very well? You got that right. I'm a loner, reason for which a philosophy entirely based on social acceptance and norms gets under my skin.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 11:19 am
@Leadfoot,
And what misunderstanding was that?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 11:57 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
And what misunderstanding was that?
Not that I mind answering that, but to give a meaningful answer I'd have to explain about the years of experiences that lead up to it and that would take more time than we both are willing to spend.

But the Cliff notes version is that I was once convinced that the destination was much like a continuation of life here. That depressed me so much that I wanted very badly to die in hopes that atheists were right and death was final. To get any nuance of that situation, keep in mind that my life here in 'normal' terms has been wonderful. I've gotten literally everything I wanted and more.

I wrote about it in a thread called "What it feels like at the last moments, before you die?". Sorry, I don't know the page it was on but I only made one post there. Edit: it's on last page, I made 2 posts, not 1.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 03:22 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
And what misunderstanding was that?
Not that I mind answering that, but to give a meaningful answer I'd have to explain about the years of experiences that lead up to it and that would take more time than we both are willing to spend.

But the Cliff notes version is that I was once convinced that the destination was much like a continuation of life here. That depressed me so much that I wanted very badly to die in hopes that atheists were right and death was final. To get any nuance of that situation, keep in mind that my life here in 'normal' terms has been wonderful. I've gotten literally everything I wanted and more.

I wrote about it in a thread called "What it feels like at the last moments, before you die?". Sorry, I don't know the page it was on but I only made one post there. Edit: it's on last page, I made 2 posts, not 1.


I also have a wonderful, wonderful life, Leadfoot...and I could not agree with you more on this.

I sure hope that death is final. Landing in theistic Heaven spending eternity with their god...seems as decent a description of Hell as any other I've ever heard.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 04:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
"In heaven all the interesting people are missing." (Nietzsche)
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2015 04:29 pm
@layman,
Yeah, but Nietzsche's idea of heaven sucked. Mine did too for a while there, but fortunately I found out otherwise. Kind of disappointed in Nietzsche for buying into organized religion's version. Thought he would have been more original.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 01:15 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Yeah, but Nietzsche's idea of heaven sucked. Mine did too for a while there, but fortunately I found out otherwise.

Like Olivier5 said, metaphysics are a free-for-all.

It's good if it makes you happy and this happiness doesn't entail harming others.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2015 03:31 am
@Leadfoot,
I take this aphorism by Nietzjghxchze as a joke.
 

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