Is affirmative action REALLY fair?

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The bias of preconcieved notions!

hypocrisy

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CarbonSystem wrote:

What preconcieved notions do you accuse me of having?

preconcieved Notions that are ignorant of the temporal continuum of actions and reactions that cuminate into what is known as the present. Your analysis of affirmative action is a snap shot analysis concerning what is "fair". At a point in time it may be unfair, but from the summation of time...it falls way short of making up for what was done to black people!

Hope that helps...but I doubt it.

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Noah The African wrote:

Hope that helps...but I doubt it.

Arrogant.

In my opinion, there is no way that we can make up for what slavery did to black people. I'm sure you must agree. AA is a form of revenge against white people. It is understandable, if you get punched in the mouth while tied to a chair, when you get free from that chair, you may want to later get revenge and hit that person back, but that person has moved away, so you hit his son instead. Even though his son has apologized. Your actions of hitting his son are not justified, niether is AA.

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The person who's getting hit isn't there anymore, and neither is the person who was originally tied to the chair. AA isn't about personal revenge, because there is no one left to revenge. AA was supposed to help the son of the person tied to the chair to bash the chair into little peices, not to bash other people. How it works in practice is another story though.

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That chair was bashed a long time ago.

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CarbonSystem wrote:

AA is a form of revenge against white people.

Are you sure this is true?

I thought AA was intended as a mechanism to change the percentage of various "groups" within the workforce.

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The bindings are gone, but the chair is still there.

The metaphor is getting a little deep, but I hope you get the idea.

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I would much rather be arrogant than absurd (as you are)sir. I am not arrogant.I am confidant that I am speaking the logical and factual truth. AA is not meant to be punitive unless one interprets the goal of equality as punishment for those who benefit in stature from a state of inequality. Only those basking and revealing in superiority have a problem with the notion of promoting equality. The notion that AA is vengeful is an emotional analysis and not a logical one. Moreover, even if it is vengeful, it does not mean that it is not JUST or JUSTIFIED vengeance. If I do not pay my bills and the creditor refers me to collection and ruin my creditor scorethat can be seen as punitive and vengefulbut also justified. Thus, what you are postulating is simply an obfuscation of the issue.

In regards to slavery perpetrators and victims".but what does slavery have to do with today?"

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You seem to be missing the same point over and over again; things are more equal now than ever before. There is no state of inequality in the United States right now that can be affected by affirmative action.

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CarbonSystem wrote:

You seem to be missing the same point over and over again; things are more equal now than ever before. There is no state of inequality in the United States right now that can be affected by affirmative action.

I cannot debate with ignorance. You did not even know that slavery existed in the original norther colonies in America. Now you plead ignorance to the inequalities between blacks and whites. I suggest read a statistical abstract of the United States in regards to social and economic barometers such as poverty, unemployment rates, income disparity ect.

I did not come here to educate you folks....I just came to expose the fact that you are uneducated in regards to the issues of race. You use ignorance as a defense and cover. Its willful and moreover, its racist because most racism is born from IGNORANCE!!!

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. Now you plead ignorance to the inequalities between blacks and whites.

You mean AA? :wink:

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I suggest read a statistical abstract of the United States in regards to social and economic barometers such as poverty, unemployment rates, income disparity ect.

I suppose that, assuming I know where you're gettin at with blacks being higher in those statistics than whites, its a white man's fault? In the 50's, 60's, 70's, or even 80's maybe but now their conditions may be self-inflicted.

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Now you plead ignorance to the inequalities between blacks and whites.

The only inequalities left are inequalities that must be fxed b the BLACKS THEMSELVES not the system.

The few cases of racial profiling in jobs/colleges work both ways now too. You can find a story where a black man is denied a job for race and I'll find one for a white man. They both happen now and that's sad. Though the latter happens legally in the form of AA.

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I just came to expose the fact that you are uneducated in regards to the issues of race. You use ignorance as a defense and cover.

ar·ro·gant
adj.

1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others

cavalier
adj.

1. Showing arrogant or offhand disregard; dismissive

and worstly:

hy·poc·ri·sy
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.

There is no right opinion Noah. A case can be made for either side. However your weakness is your cavalier and elitist approach to this.

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I cannot debate with ignorance.

you should try debating with arrogance *cough cough*

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I can't believe I've overlooked your most obvious flaw in your reasoning Noah. History cannot be equaled out and balanced. I believe to do so would create mroe problems. Should Jews purge Germans? Should Native Americans wage biological warefare with Europeas?

I think you get the idea. I'm not saying don't FIX a problem but you cannot later try and reverse the effects at the price of others, especially in areas of ethnicites and races, and social areas. Historical social unjust cannot, and never could, be properly reversed.

We must solve a problem not reverse it. Otherwise it is still a problem. We fix racial profiling by eliminating race as a factor not reversing which race is favored. That just creates more problems.

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How dare you try and call me racist. Do you think all the people who share the same view as me are racist? They surely aren't, and niether am I. My viewpoint on this subject is based on my idea of what equal is. I did not see the effects of slavery first hand, I doubt you did. If we are too young to witness these things, the problem of slavery is extinguished, then why have AA? Tell me what problem it will solve. I'm sure you'll agree that if there is no problem being solved then it is severely unnecesary. You must try and open your mind up to my thoughts, if you have any hope of expanding your knowledge on this subject. And if you wish to enlighten me, then first try to understand what you think I'm not getting, then you may be able to persuade me. But I know you aren't looking at my viewpoints with an open mind, because you cannot debate the topic, your'e debating whether I'm worthy of speaking of this topic with you. Focus on the topic at hand, not me, I assure you, I am more than worthy of this discussion.

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CarbonSystem wrote:

things are more equal now than ever before.

Yes, they are. That doesn't mean that they're equal enough though.

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There is no state of inequality in the United States right now that can be affected by affirmative action.

True. But this because of a fault of AA, not because the situation here is as good as it gets.

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Noah The African wrote:

I did not come here to educate you folks....I just came to expose the fact that you are uneducated in regards to the issues of race. You use ignorance as a defense and cover. Its willful and moreover, its racist because most racism is born from IGNORANCE!!!

The truly uneducated expose their ignorance on their own. There's no need to flame. There are plenty of more effective ways of dealing with ignorance.

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CarbonSystem wrote:

How dare you try and call me racist. Do you think all the people who share the same view as me are racist? They surely aren't, and niether am I. My viewpoint on this subject is based on my idea of what equal is. I did not see the effects of slavery first hand, I doubt you did. If we are too young to witness these things, the problem of slavery is extinguished, then why have AA? Tell me what problem it will solve. I'm sure you'll agree that if there is no problem being solved then it is severely unnecesary. You must try and open your mind up to my thoughts, if you have any hope of expanding your knowledge on this subject. And if you wish to enlighten me, then first try to understand what you think I'm not getting, then you may be able to persuade me. But I know you aren't looking at my viewpoints with an open mind, because you cannot debate the topic, your'e debating whether I'm worthy of speaking of this topic with you. Focus on the topic at hand, not me, I assure you, I am more than worthy of this discussion.

I am a descendant of African slaves in America. I am infinitely more qualified than you to speak on the effects of slavery upon not only my family, but black people in General. I do not have to bare witness to a tornado to be able to bare witness to its destruction subsequent the dissipation of the tornado. Every action produces a reaction. Because we both live in an age post the emancipation of the tornado of slavery, that does not therefore mean there is no aftermath ... or that we cannot bare witness to this aftermath. If every action produces a reaction, and it does, then qualify and quantity the reaction to black people from the acts of spending 345 of 386 years in this nation under legal oppression from the government? What are the responsibilities of the government that codified and legalized this black oppression in offsetting and curing the problems created from their actions?

You have done nothing but present ignorance. You need to entertain the probability that if you are so ignorant about so many things and facts, then how can you trust your judgment in regards to believing that you are not racist? Is not racism incubated, if not born, from ignorance? Hate is overrated as a root cause of racism. Racism today is more about erroneous reasoning based upon preconceived notions that amount to ignorance. Many people feel that they can only be racist if they have hate, which is a falsehood.

In regards to your belief that AA cannot solve any of the inequalities that exist today, that is a falsehood. The reason is that AA has been successful in providing opportunities for millions of black people over the last 25 years. Its success in its realm blinds you of the need for its utility. If it is removed, you would see increased inequality manifest in certain realms. Wanting to do away with AA because it does not solve OTHER inequalities is an invalid argument because it was never meant to solve those problems. There are certain programs that will address A to E, other addressing F to I, others to address J to Lect. AA is not a panacea covering the whole alphabet of social and economic inequalities in America.

I see none of you responded to my topic below regarding "what does slavery have to do with today". That is very telling.

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I see none of you responded to my topic below regarding "what does slavery have to do with today". That is very telling.

Where? I've looked in the past 3 pages and it's not there.

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keep looking...its the only topic that has my name as its creator. SHould not be hard to find.

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AA just puts a bandaid over the problem. It does not solve it. It serves as a way of producing short-term effects for a few people, and for making other people feel better about themselves. It doesn't address the causes; it just buries them. It's for people who don't realize that you can't just erase hundreds of years of history with a quick fix. If you want to change one part of society the right way, you have to change all of it. But that's too much work for the activisits.

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Noah The African wrote:

I am a descendant of African slaves in America. I am infinitely more qualified than you to speak on the effects of slavery upon not only my family, but black people in General.

Your background is irrelevent. Your ancestors were wronged, there is no doubt about that. We have seen the aftermath of this slavery tornado, but is AA really going to change the effects of what happened?

You are the ignorant one sir. You have the prejudice against me, because I am defending the fact that you, and your family, and the rest of the people in your race, don't deserve a leg up, when it comes to learning opportunities.

But AA isn't meant to balance the effects of slavery, it was supposed to be something else, for all minorites. Mexicans, blacks, etc. But if it was to pay back people who were wronged, they why not repay those immigrants who came after slavery was abolished, people who were subject to racism also, what about them? Why nothing for them?

You feel that because your race was wronged in the past, that it makes you superior in the future. Why do you deserve that, slavery is long gone.

You are the prejudiced one. We are not talking about the effects of slavery, were talking about the morality and fairness of AA. Any connections to slavery are irrelevent, period.

Ignorant, arrogant and close-minded. You are.

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Is affirmative action REALLY fair?

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