Is affirmative action REALLY fair?

What is most interesting about this topic is the fact that most college students - including whites - prefer to have minority preference for college admissions.

C.I., I've never seen that poll, but I suspect it's right. Most college and university (indeed most youths)students are politically liberal and socially humane. Moreover, your generalization is about students who have been accepted by their colleges and universities, ergo, affirmative action has torn no skin off their noses.

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UM admissions policy statement.
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http://www.debatingracialpreference.org/GRATZ-Respondent.htm

SAT bias against minorities. Interesting read.
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http://gseweb.harvard.edu/hepg/freedle.html

C.I., I have not been receiving updates, for example your last two. Have you been receiving updates? Answer my question here, please. Let's see if I get it.

As I said, students have practically no control over where they live. Furthermore, most state schools have rather rigid definitions of "in-state;" I know from personal experience, for instance, that it is nearly impossible for an out-of-stater to gain in-state status in Michigan. Consequently, for most students, it is not a simple matter of moving to another state.


If there is no realistic possibility of change, then I see no reason to place much importance on the merely theoretical possibility of change.


Are you saying that high school GPA and SAT scores are reliable predictors of student ability? Where's your evidence?


That is true only if GPA and the SAT are, in themselves, reliable indicators of student knowledge. Are you saying that they are?


By what measures?


That may have been your goal, but we shouldn't expect that your goals would necessarily coincide with the university's goals.


You've just said that diversity is a worthwhile goal. How can a college achieve diversity without taking race into account?


Noble sentiments indeed, but completely beside the point.

JLN, I'm not sure I understand your question. Sorry. However, here's another article on "Pro and Con." People can arrive at their own conclusion. http://www.debatingracialpreference.org/Bowen.htm

I do not receive "updates" on racial bias in colleges. I do search the web, and post those I deem relavant - from both perspectives. As for my earlier statement about white students preference for racial mix/equality in school, I think I read that recently in my local newspaper.

Somewhat supports the contention that parents prefer a mixed studentbody. http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/1-04282004-290715.html

The article in the following link is long, but it's worth a read. http://www.gse.harvard.edu/~hepg/rudenstine.htm

Carbonsystem, in my university department (where I taught for more than two decades) when we evaluated candidates, GRE scores were given considerable weight, but they were balanced against GPA scores and, to a lesser extent faculty letters (mainly because the latter were not always credible). I, for one, gave more weight to GPA than to any single test, since the GPA reflects years of successful test-taking, successful class discussion and term papers. When a friend of mine applied to the university where he took earned his Ph.D.--the only school he applied to--he boldly refused to take the GRE because he considered it unfair to have to risk his future on a single test. As an undergraduate in a major university he graduate Magna Cum Laude, was elected to Phi Beta Kappa and Pi Gamma Mu. Moreoever his letters of recommendation were glowing, and he provided copies of articles he had already published in his chosen field. The chair of the department where he made application waived the GRE requirement. Requirements need not be considered absolute.
When I found a student whose GRE was almost borderline, but his GPA very high , I would--partly because of my friend's experience--give more weight to the latter. There are many ways to evaluate a candidate. On a few occasions I voted to admit students on probation. These candidates were borderline in their GPA (but had respectable GRE scores) yet showed considerable improvement in their last year of undergraduate study. I assumed they were unmotivated in their first three years of undergraduate work (something quite common in talented young people). If they could not excel in their probationary year they were expected to withdraw. This flexibility is at the root of evaluations of minority candidates. One need not confine is evaluations to scores, or even GPAs. Letters of recommendation, autobiographical statements, interviews, examples of written work, etc. make it unnecessary to compare majority and minority students soley on the basis of test scores, like SAT, LSAT, and GRE scores. Let me add that I have not been disappointed by any students whose applications I have supported.

I agree with what you're saying, that not as much emphasis should be on standardized testing, and more subjective. I am just of the opinion that in the society we live in today, race should not be part of that subjective choosing process. It should not be considered anymore than if the person has blue eyes or brown eyes, tall or small, thin or fat, etc...

JLN, I personally think that the way you evaluated students for acceptance to your university was valid and fair. Even GPA by itself is not a good indicator of future performance. If I remember correctly, I remember reading about the phenomenon of good looking students tendency to get better grades than homely looking ones (very old news, so I'm not sure if it still applies). As a matter of fact, I was a below average student all through grade school, but through some hard work earned a degree in accounting. If grade school performance is an indicator of later success, I don't fit that mold. I worked in management during most of my professional career, and I wasn't even in the top ten percent of my graduating class.

I was very flexible in evaluating applicants to our university in part because my first twelve years of school were total failures. I only got As in art and music (and one science class). I guess my GPA was something like 1.5, so I could not get into any university. I started out, instead, in a junior college (at the late age of 28). Eventually I earned a doctorate and retired as a tenured professor from a major university. In my experience, the only thing that exams measure FOR SURE, is ability to take tests. They are better than nothing--I don't want to overstate my position--but they certainly are not full-proof predictors of success. I've always considered it an arrogance to predict the failure of a student. I never discouraged students no matter how dumb I thought they were. Some of my grade school teachers thought me dumb, and they were wrong. I hope.

JLN, Thanks for sharing your personal achievement. I think the following story is a good one to show why grades alone are not good predictors of later success. I know a retired professor from Cal Poly (one of the premier universities in California) who has taught Life Sciences and Zoology for forty years. He had a student that he considered one of the dumbest that took his class. His name is John Madden.

C.I., does that support or refute my position?

JLN, One class does not a career make.

Joe, where did you go?