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Is affirmative action REALLY fair?

 
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2005 08:45 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
jp, IMHO, quoting Sowell about the dynamics in other countries does not necessarily apply to the US educational or job standards. I believe his thesis only applies to those countries in which he did research, and extrapolating them to the US is somewhat of a stretch. There is a great deal more "equality" in this country than most people would have us believe. That's not to say we don't have discrimination in the US.


Some of the quotes are from US statistics. I find these three particularly telling:

Quote:
100 years ago, labor force participation rates among blacks were slightly higher then among whites - and remained so on past the middle of the 20th century.

- US bureau of Census, Historical Statistics of the US: Colonial times to 1957 (Washington DC: US Government printing office) 1961. p 72

Black American college students planning to go to post-graduate education were found by one study to feel no sense of urgency about the need to prepare themselves academically "because they believe that certain rukes would simply be set aside for them."

- Daniel C. Thompson. Private Black Colleges at the Crossroads. p88

Rate of progress of blacks, and especially low income blacks, during the era of AA policies has been less than that under "equal opportunity" policies which preceded it or even before equal opportunity.

- Stephan Thernstrom and Abigail Thernstrom. America in Black and White: One Nation, Indivisble. p184-188


The other examples don't really talk about discrimination in other counties. They talk more about the effect that AA policies have on the motivation and williness of those that the policies are trying to "help." I think this is a very relevant point no matter what country it is happening in. My second quote even shows that it is happening in the United States.

It is my belief that AA policies do nothing but add to the entitlement mentality of this country.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2005 09:56 am
jp, Did you see the article I posted from the San Jose Merc about minority graduation rates from high school in California? The study by Harvard shows that blacks and Hispanics graduate high school at very low rates - something like 50 percent for blacks and 60 percent for Hispanics. Before we talk about job discrimination, we need to find out the why graduation rates are so low for these two groups before we look at why jobs for these groups are lacking. Don't you agree?
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2005 10:35 am
Yeah I read it and yes I agree.

I have long believed that things/problems have gotten so large and intertwined that it may be to late to right the ship.

The way I see it is: we have students who do not care, we have parents who do not care, we have teachers and schools that do not care.

I think the solution, instead of hand outs and dumbing down of schools even more, is to make things even stricter. We need to start flunking everybody.

I have a friend who teaches at a charter school in Milwaukee. He teaches Spanish Literature to hispanic speaking students. He says that most of his students (high school level) do not even speak SPANISH correctly. He said most of them are illiterate in their OWN language and instead speak different dialects of spanish.

His greatest problem is that niether the kids nor the parents care. When he tries to discipline the kids, they run to a symathetic teacher or administrator who overturns the discipline that he handed out. For him it is a lose/lose situation. He thinks that instead of hiring teachers they should just hire psychiatrists.

My mother is a BD/LD teacher in a elementary school that is very diverse. She has the some of the same problems. She teaches her kids that it is THEIR responsability to get to school. She has hundreds of sad stories about kids walking to school because their parents won't take them. Parents not helping with homework. Parents not caring about their childrens education. It is no suprise to me at all that their are kids not graduating because from the time they are young they learn that it is not important.

AA feeds into this. AA isn't just about making a diverse work place. It is about the mentality and preperation of those involved. You even hear about African American students who speak correct grammar and work hard in school getting teased because they are "acting white."

Is this the message we are trying to send?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2005 11:16 am
jp, Your comment about Spanish kids taking Spanish language classes was also the problem our younger son identified when he took Spanish for three years in high school. He said most of the Hispanic kids that took Spanish flunked. Our younger son is now 38 years old.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2005 11:20 am
It is really sad, isn't it? Maybe the fact that 20 some years have passed and nothing has gotten better could indicated that our current policies are not working.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2005 11:24 am
Agreed; and to think the people in charge of our educational system doesn't seem to have learned to improve it. Our rankings on educating our kids have been falling for many years, especially in math and science. We're scraping the bottom of the barrell amongst all developed nations; our future looks bleak when high tech is the future of all economies.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2005 11:27 am
It paints a scary picture of the future. I honestly don't know what the answers are. Like I said earlier, it may be to late to right the ship.
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rushjedi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Apr, 2005 03:14 pm
ill use it but i dont agree with it.....
yea fine ill freely admit as a mexican american that i view afirmative action as nothing more than a pathetic racist practice. I believe that it not only discriminates against caucasian students but is also an insult to the minorities its supposed to help. It seems as thugh colleges believe that a student of a minority ethnicity is incapable of getting into college on his own. Therefore he has to be helped along because poor fellow cant seem to do it on his own. Rolling Eyes That is what truly annoys me about it . However, that having been said I do appreciate the fact that because im mexican my application receives a little more attention than others.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Apr, 2005 08:12 am
rushjedi: I have a tough time deciding whether your position is more cynical than hypocritical or more hypocritical than cynical.
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rushjedi
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2005 07:14 am
hey you
allright so ill admit that last post was a little ambigious and hypocrtical but it wasnt cynical its the truth thats how i view the situation. I'm tired of the condesceding view people have towards minorities especially those minorities who are successfull. For some reason a black man doing well is suprising or something to appreciate its no more spectacular than a white man doing well. minorities dont need the handouts of afirmative action financial aide is always appreciated tho
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