Is affirmative action REALLY fair?

Noah this thread is great, I'm excited to hear your response to El-Diablo and I's latest responses.

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I am not concerned about contradiction that you can find in my writings. I am sure that there are some. However, the only valid contradiction would and should be presented against my logic for affirmative action. Do I have bias.of course? Do I have preconceived notionsof course? The difference is that your bias and preconceived notions are flawed because you look at the situation in one dimension, which is the present, while I look at it encompassing the past, present and future.

The fact of what other people wronged in America do or do not do has no influence on what black people should or should not do. If two people are assaulted, both have valid claims and each grievance is not dependant upon the other. If immigrants wronged in America want to press charges against America that has nothing to do with the legitimacy of black charges. All you are suggesting to me is that there have been other people wrongedWHO DID NOT PRESS CHARGES. That has NOTHING to do with the validity of charges being filled by black people.

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Noah The African wrote:

I am not concerned about contradiction that you can find in my writings. I am sure that there are some. However, the only valid contradiction would and should be presented against my logic for affirmative action. Do I have bias.of course? Do I have preconceived notionsof course? The difference is that your bias and preconceived notions are flawed because you look at the situation in one dimension, which is the present, while I look at it encompassing the past, present and future.

How can you even be taken seriously in this matter if you cannot even keep a single point consistent? Contradictions cannot be said to not matter, they do. If you cannot see that, then you probably shouldn't participate in forums like this one.

If you admit to having bias, how can you be so sure that you are right? If your bias is clouding your thought?

You may see this matter in two dimensions, but so do I. I look to the past, I look to the emancipation proclamation, then the right to vote, then laws pertaining to no discrimination, have you forgotten the most glorious victories of your own race? The dimension you see is the only one you've ever known, so I suppose I cannot blame you for your ignorance. But that gives you no right to speak in this forum as if your view is superior to someone else's, especially if you hold a certain bias.

View the other dimension, but this dimension is my side of the issue. Only then can you really decide if how you feel is correct.

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The fact of what other people wronged in America do or do not do has no influence on what black people should or should not do. If two people are assaulted, both have valid claims and each grievance is not dependant upon the other. If immigrants wronged in America want to press charges against America that has nothing to do with the legitimacy of black charges. All you are suggesting to me is that there have been other people wrongedWHO DID NOT PRESS CHARGES. That has NOTHING to do with the validity of charges being filled by black people.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about but suuurrree.

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If one has a personal bias that concludes that 10 times 10 = 100, that is quite different from a personal bias that concluded 10 times 10 = 80. I condemn your person bias because you all cannot logically reconcile it. Your goal is the hold onto the bias and not to grab for the truth.

You talk about the things you note from the emancipation, to the civil right legislation of the 60's, yet; you have not lamented what reactions has been the resultant of nearly 400 years of black oppression. It is one thing to be able to look back and say that such things existedbut how did those things hamper black people relative to white people?

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10 * 10 = 100 is a fact, not an opinion or a bias. There are no facts in social relations that have that kind of absolute certainty. This is what we call an inductive science.

And trying to rectify a situation that is the result of 400 years of history is not the same as taking out a personal vendetta for someone who is no longer alive against someone who is no longer alive.

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personal vendetta for someone who is no longer alive against someone who is no longer alive.

Ahh, "vendetta". That's the word I've been looking for the whole time. Noah seems to think its some sort of white vs black vendetta when the whites are basically trying to create equality by eliminating race as a factor and yet people like Noah seem to think that equality wil be reached by enforcing racial barriers? Hmm that doesn't make much sense now does it. Kinda reminds me of the age of slavery when race was a HUGE barrier. No barrier no problem. No woman no cry. Bob marley was a genius.

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Well, you can't eliminate the race factor, but other than that....

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Noah The African wrote:

I condemn your person bias because you all cannot logically reconcile it. Your goal is the hold onto the bias and not to grab for the truth.

I am still waiting for you to logically reconcile your bias. In your mind you cannot be wrong, therefore, you cannot grab for the truth. To you, the truth is an illusion, a hologram you believe is in your grasp, but in reality, your eyes will not stray from the illusion to search for the real truth.

And how do you know what my goals are again?...

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Well, you can't eliminate the race factor, but other than that....

Well, I don't mean eliminate by all means people should celebrate and study their race. But it should NEVER be a factor in employment, admissions, wages, tuition, opportunities, etc... That should be for personal skills only.

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Unfortuntely, it probably will be for a very long time. It's a matter of lessening it.

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AA doesn't help lessen that, not in the least.

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Not everyone knows that 10 times 10 = 100. It is immaterial whether or not the preconceived notion is an absolute fact. People can be and are ignorant of absolute facts. When ones goes into a debate with a preconceived notion that is factually provable, it is still a notion or thought that creates a bias against preconceived notions that are predicated on falsehoods.

You guys are "projecting". That is a term in clinical psychology to describe the tendency of people to use their insecurities and thoughts as the template for interpreting the unstated or unknown intentions of another. Please do not confuse your insecurities with my intentions. The fact that I present the truth of history and how this nation placed a premium on "whiteness" and a liability upon "blackness" that resulted in the oppression, suppression and repression of black people does not mean that I am seeking revenge or a vendetta. That is simply your insecurities and "projection" taking place.

Clearly, the situation is this. After nearly 400 years of legal oppression of black people, it is very plausible and probable that the socio and economic gaps between blacks and white in this nation is a direct or indirect resultant of this nation's oppression of black people. What do you call people who would leave blacks with the burdens of the past that puts them at a competitive disadvantage in a competitive social and economic construct? It is certainly not fair to the black collective to have to start the race many yards behind the white collective, yet, expect the black collective to finish the race on par with the white collective. If the typical black person puts in the same amount of energy as the typical white person, blacks could never catch up. The only way blacks can catch up is through being superior to white people. Now if whites are working as hard as they claim, (which they use to rationalize their success and wealth) blacks working just as hard will not close the gap unless blacks are indeed superior to whites in capacities and abilities.

Thus, blacks are unfairly burdened and are at a competitive disadvantage from past and present white racism. Blacks do not have the numerical numbers or the economic power to offset white racism with black racism. Thus, past and present white racism has no offset in this society and results in a negative force against black progress. To fight against the government imposing an offset is in effect a fight to preserve the burden and unfairness upon black people. You see, racism is not just about creating the gaps between blacks and whites; it is also about preserving those gaps. Racism is not just about creating the effect of white advantage and privilege; it is about preserving white status and privilege after the fact of others creating it.

I hate to bust many of your bubbles, but being neutral in regards to race is a step up from being a racist, but it still preserves the effects of racist. If there are whites out their proactively discriminating against blacks, and there are, a white that are neutral and see no color does not offset the effects of the racist whites. Unless there are white folks out their discriminating in favor of blacks, those whites who discriminate against blacks has the negative effects of their racism preserved upon the black collective.

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proofread

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El-Diablo wrote:

Well, I don't mean eliminate by all means people should celebrate and study their race. But it should NEVER be a factor in employment, admissions, wages, tuition, opportunities, etc... That should be for personal skills only.

Why shouldn't race be a factor in those decisions?

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Why should it be, joe? Race doesn't determine how well you work and how qualified you are and what kind of asset you will be. What should it be considered? So people can fill quotas? Sounds useless and harmful to me.... They should be based on your qualifications not on your race.

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That is a term in clinical psychology to describe the tendency of people to use their insecurities and thoughts as the template for interpreting the unstated or unknown intentions of another. Please do not confuse your insecurities with my intentions. The fact that I present the truth of history and how this nation placed a premium on "whiteness" and a liability upon "blackness" that resulted in the oppression, suppression and repression of black people does not mean that I am seeking revenge or a vendetta. That is simply your insecurities and "projection" taking place.

Thank you Mr Psycologist. Rolling Eyes

By the way your wrong but we'll forget that part. I have no insecurities of AA; it fuckin benefits me. But it is wrong.

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Not everyone knows that 10 times 10 = 100. It is immaterial whether or not the preconceived notion is an absolute fact. People can be and are ignorant of absolute facts. When ones goes into a debate with a preconceived notion that is factually provable, it is still a notion or thought that creates a bias against preconceived notions that are predicated on falsehoods.

Those are some mighty big words and we're not but humble pirates.

And I get what you're saying Noah and perhaps maybe u can give blacks financial aid but not employment aid and wage aid. That needs to be earned by the best qualified person; not the most colored.

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El-Diablo wrote:

Quote:
That is a term in clinical psychology to describe the tendency of people to use their insecurities and thoughts as the template for interpreting the unstated or unknown intentions of another. Please do not confuse your insecurities with my intentions. The fact that I present the truth of history and how this nation placed a premium on "whiteness" and a liability upon "blackness" that resulted in the oppression, suppression and repression of black people does not mean that I am seeking revenge or a vendetta. That is simply your insecurities and "projection" taking place.

Thank you Mr Psycologist. By the way your wrong but we'll forget that part. I have no insecurities of AA; it **** benefits me. But it is wrong.

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Not everyone knows that 10 times 10 = 100. It is immaterial whether or not the preconceived notion is an absolute fact. People can be and are ignorant of absolute facts. When ones goes into a debate with a preconceived notion that is factually provable, it is still a notion or thought that creates a bias against preconceived notions that are predicated on falsehoods.

Those are some mighty big words and we're not but humble pirates.

And I get what you're saying Noah and perhaps maybe u can give blacks financial aid but not employment aid and wage aid. That needs to be earned by the best qualified person; not the most colored.

As a consumer...I will not give patronoage to companies who do not have a proper number of people who look like me working for them. Thus, COLOR can and does play a role in the bottom line of a company. I will not promote their prejudice or unwillingness to seek out black canidates who are just as qualified...if not more.

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I will not promote their prejudice or unwillingness to seek out black canidates who are just as qualified...if not more.

Neither would I. Nor did I say that or imply that. nice twisting of the words though :wink:

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If you are going to spout insults at us and quote my posts without reading what I write, I see no reason to continue this discussion, Noah.

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Is affirmative action REALLY fair?

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