If You Support Israel, Join The Reverse Boycott

@Foofie,

Quote:

And, let's remember that there is not the same freedom in Judaism as in other faiths. Why? The God of the Hebrews had a different charge for them. Sorry, now go schlufen.

How is this not an example of racial supremacy?

This isn't a unique doctrine, White Supremacists talk about how God made them to be the natural rulers of the world. There are similar ideas in other nationalistic religions; Hinduism, Shintoism... the Aztec religion... when humans were tribal they each wanted to believe they were loved more than any other race by the supreme god or set of gods. Many tribal religions believed that they were given a special charge by a deity. In the 21st century, many humans have evolved past these beliefs.

The hatred of race mixing goes hand in hand. If you sincerely believe that you were created better than other races you don't want the pure blood mixing with people beneath you.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

For the record. I am not a Christian.

As long as you are continuing to post to me, I thought a little more about the logic/ethics of what I offered in the way of a paradigm to Judaism's survival. You see, regardless of how the progressives look upon the Palestinian's plight as strictly an Israeli/Palestinian concern, the Arabs just want the dissolution of the Zionist state of Israel. O.K., I get that. So, with intermarriage eroding Judaism outside of Israel, I would have to believe that there is a way for Judaism to survive, just like it did between the Roman's expulsion of Jews from Jerusalem and 1948 with the founding of Israel as a Zionist state. And, the realization came to me that any boycott of Israeli goods is likely hurting innocent Israelis that just want to provide for family by possibly growing oranges; no politics in that family possibly. So, the boycott folk have no regard of whether it is ethical to involve simple people in their political agenda, regardless of whether it is punishing the innocent (remember that in Israel we now have second and third generations born into that society - not their fault).

So, my paradigm, just following the lead of the boycott folk, is just to boycott interfaith dating. Something that did exist in my youth amongst even secular Jews (i.e., "I'm sorry, I just date Jewish boys.") So, to go back to that paradigm would ensure the survival of Judaism in the Diaspora. Simple!

Right now the survival of Judaism is based on a dwindling Orthodox demographic, and Israel's existence. However, since the Arabs could get their way, and turn the Zionist state into a historical entity, other means are necessary to keep Judaism alive. Sort of like how Greek Orthodoxy survived even after centuries of Moslem occupation.

And, any protestations that Israel's outlawing interfaith marriages being officiated in Israel (an interfaith couple can live/be citizens, but the marriage has to be outside of Israel) is too archaic/or whatever, is just so much an intolerance to the ambiguity of Judaism just not being a proselytizing faith, yet still wanting to survive.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
And, let's remember that there is not the same freedom in Judaism as in other faiths. Why? The God of the Hebrews had a different charge for them. Sorry, now go schlufen.

How is this not an example of racial supremacy?

This isn't a unique doctrine, White Supremacists talk about how God made them to be the natural rulers of the world. There are similar ideas in other nationalistic religions; Hinduism, Shintoism... the Aztec religion... when humans were tribal they each wanted to believe they were loved more than any other race by the supreme god or set of gods. Many tribal religions believed that they were given a special charge by a deity. In the 21st century, many humans have evolved past these beliefs.

The hatred of race mixing goes hand in hand. If you sincerely believe that you were created better than other races you don't want the pure blood mixing with people beneath you.

No superiority. Just let an interfaith couple raise any children in the Jewish faith and Judaism survives. The goal is Judaism's survival, not preventing any mixing with Gentiles. Stop using the word "race" when referring to Jews. They are not a race. At best, just a gene pool. Sort of like Anglo-Saxons in England, for example. Even though they are a mix of earlier tribes.

Let's stop this silly banter. Are you denying Judaism the right to remain an autonomous faith and be concerned about its survival (all 14 million adherents world-wide)? What do you call that?

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@Foofie,

It is superiority Foofie, and your posts demonstrate this. In your posts you aren't talking about equality.

You aren't suggesting that all minority religions and cultures be respected an protected. In every post you put Jewish culture as more important than every other culture. You even imply that God give the Jews special rights above any other religion/ethnic group. Please correct me if I misunderstood any of what you are saying. I would be pleasantly pleased if you actually accept that the concerns other religions/ethnic groups are just as important as the concerns of Judaism.

Let's imagine a interfaith marriage between a Jew and a Yazidi. The Yazidi's have faced horrible persecution through the years, and they are now much more culturally under threat than the Jews.

Would you accept that in Jewish-Yazidi marriage, the children should be raised as Yazidi so as to ensure the survival of the Yazidi culture?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Would you accept that in Jewish-Yazidi marriage, the children should be raised as Yazidi so as to ensure the survival of the Yazidi culture?

No. My concerns are about Judaism's survival, since that is my orientation. So, a boycott of inter-faith dating by Jews would have prevented such an ethical concern on your part.

If you prefer to think that my concerns about Jewish survival reflects a feeling of superiority, then how about the past practice of the Catholic church requiring an interfaith couple, before marriage, promising to raise the children Catholic? Are you incensed about that? I'm not. Everyone has a right, especially in this country, to pursue happiness as they see it, and the process is not illegal. Now go away. You have issues with Judaism that reflect an orientation I do not subscribe to. So, just live with your opinions, and don't proselytize them to me. Notice that I have no interest in getting you to see/subscribe to my viewpoint.

And, the concept of superiority is spurious, since if one is just average, and another person is below average, the average person is superior to the below average person, for whatever aptitude is being measured. So, Jews must be remaining Jews for some reason? What could that be. Oh yes, they just don't believe that Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior. That means they think their religion is superior? No. It just means that they might not want children, grandchildren to adopt Christianity, since Jews just believe Jesus was a Rabbi that was an anti-Roman zealot. End of story. Please do not reply, except if you need to have the last word; you may have it.

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@Foofie,

There is a big difference between anti-miscegenation laws and a boycott. A boycott involves who you personally choose to marry. This is a personal decision. No one will force you to marry outside of your religion or ethnic group, but this is a matter of individual freedom.

Anti-miscegenation laws mean a dominant ethnic group (in this case Jews in Israel) are preventing people from marrying who they love by the force of law. Anti-miscegenation laws take away freedom.

I don't know of any modern country enforcing Catholic anti-miscegenation laws. Europe got rid of their anti-Miscegenation laws 100 years ago (with a brief period of anti-miscegenation laws resurfacing around the time of World War II). America got rid of the final White Supremacist anti-miscegenation laws 58 years ago.

All developed countries, with the exception of Israel, consider these laws to be backwards and barbaric. This is institutionalized bigotry... dictating that some people are not suitable for marriage for the dominant religious group.

A true modern democracy doesn't allow for anti-miscegenation laws. Yes, I will condemn them wherever they exist. There is no difference whether they are protecting White Supremacy or Jewish nationalism.

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@maxdancona,

Americans can understand this best by understanding our own history with anti-miscegenation laws.

Anti-miscegenation laws in the US were part of the system of institutionalized segregation. It was built around the idea that White Culture was more important than any other and that because of this, the purity of the White ethnic group must be protected. (Which is basically what Foofie is arguing about Jewish ethnicity).

The claim was that if White people and Black people started dating and marrying the White culture would suffer. But more than that, the carefully constructed social myths about ethnic groups would crumble (which turned out to be correct).

It is true, since Loving v. Virginia (which got rid of anti-miscegenation laws) and was part of a general move against ethnic segregation, our society has changed.

Just imagine how it would feel to live in a society where White people are forbidden by their parents, their society from dating people from other races... and worse that this segregation was enforced by communities supported by the police.

Fortunately we no longer live in this type of society. But that is exactly what is happening in Israel and what Foofie is so emphatically supporting.

My White ethnic group once had anti-miscegenation laws that were designed to support segregation and keep the culture from changing. Lo and behold, once we got rid of them our culture did change.... for the better.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

There is a big difference between anti-miscegenation laws and a boycott. A boycott involves who you personally choose to marry. This is a personal decision. No one will force you to marry outside of your religion or ethnic group, but this is a matter of individual freedom.

Anti-miscegenation laws mean a dominant ethnic group (in this case Jews in Israel) are preventing people from marrying who they love by the force of law. Anti-miscegenation laws take away freedom.

I don't know of any modern country enforcing Catholic anti-miscegenation laws. Europe got rid of their anti-Miscegenation laws 100 years ago (with a brief period of anti-miscegenation laws resurfacing around the time of World War II). America got rid of the final White Supremacist anti-miscegenation laws 58 years ago.

All developed countries, with the exception of Israel, consider these laws to be backwards and barbaric. This is institutionalized bigotry... dictating that some people are not suitable for marriage for the dominant religious group.

A true modern democracy doesn't allow for anti-miscegenation laws. Yes, I will condemn them wherever they exist. There is no difference whether they are protecting White Supremacy or Jewish nationalism.

You've taken my original thought of Sept. 17:
"It has got me to thinking also. I would like to see secular Jewish males in college boycott dating Shiksas. The reverse is of value also. A boycott by Shiksas of dating secular Jewish males. Right now there is an unofficial boycott, but only to and from Orthodox (Modern Orthodox) Jews. But, it appears that those secular Jewish males are too attractive to many a bright, educated Shiksa."

and went off into a discussion of miscegenation and Jewish nationalism. My concern is not Jewish nationalism, but survival of Judaism, as a religion, outside of Israel, since the existence of Israel might be tenuous in the future, what with so many people attempting to denigrate its current mode of existence. And, since Jews are not a race, no more than Arabs are a race (actually both are cousins according to the Old Testament), miscegenation is an inappropriate topic to my posting.

And, since my thought only was concerned about an unofficial (aka, social mores) boycott of INTER-FAITH dating, by Orthodox Jews, such unofficial dating criteria might be appropriate for secular Jews to have a Jewish identity survive for any Jew in the future. It was unofficial for Jews in the 1960's, when Gentiles thought that Jewish males just wanted to date Gentile girls, but not marry them; however, as a decade or two passed, it was obvious that Jews were marrying Gentiles, and the mixed couple even celebrated Christmas oftentimes (one of the supposed reasons why one shouldn't marry a Jew - one loses celebrating Christmas).

So, even with an unofficial (aka, social mores) boycott, interfaith couples will marry; however, if there was more awareness of what that will likely ultimately result in for Judaism, as a faith, a percentage of secular Jews might decide that it is not for them. It is all up to the individuals; however, a little education amongst the secular Jewish population might help Judaism survive.

Also, from the standpoint of protecting children from mental anguish, how many interfaith couples decide to celebrate both Jewish and Christian holidays? That "confusion" as to who one is might be the overriding factor why children of a mixed marriage marry a Christian mate, so their children will not have the confusion of two religious beliefs. So, inter-faith marriage is just tantamount, much of the time in my opinion, to a slow, but efficient eroding of Judaism as a surviving faith.

Let's stop using the word "miscegenation" or "Jewish nationalism." I was talking about Judaism's survival in the Diaspora by educating secular Jews of the long term effects of just inter-faith dating. No anti-miscegenation. No Jewish nationalism.

I would just also like to see inter-faith couples, regardless of race, just raise children Jewish, if one spouse is Jewish. That would go for gays or heterosexuals. Within the confines of a marriage, Jewish proselytizing might be good for Judaism's survival.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

1) We can stop calling it Jewish Nationalism when you accept that other ethnic groups are equal to yours and that their concerns are as important as your concerns. The problem isn't that you are concerned that Jewish culture "survives" (I question the meaning of that term as every culture changes over time). The problem is that you think that the interests of Jewish Culture, as you see them, trump the human rights, and freedom and even similar needs of other minority cultures.

If you were saying that all cultures have the right to express themselves and to pass on their traditions, then you would have my complete support. Modern, multi-cultural democracies are the best way to ensure freedom and equality. But you aren't saying that... you are saying your culture is more important than any other.

2) We can stop calling them anti-miscegenation laws when there are no longer laws (in Israel or elsewhere) that restrict who you can marry by ethnicity or religion. What's happening is not just a boycott (where individuals are deciding they only want to marry in their ethnic group.

What's happening is Israel is the use of force, often involving the Police, to prevent someone who wants to marry outside of his or her ethnic group from doing so.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Just imagine how it would feel to live in a society where White people are forbidden by their parents, their society from dating people from other races...

Fortunately we no longer live in this type of society.

My White ethnic group once had anti-miscegenation laws that were designed to support segregation and keep the culture from changing. Low and behold,once we got rid of them our culture did change.... for the better.

Some points:

In American society today, there are Whites and even some Blacks who are strongly encouraged to marry within their own group. Rich parents ( white/black) in general don't want their kids marrying a homeless /poor person. Common sense tells them, marry rich and keep the money rolling into thefamily.

If they are Jewish, they want their kids to marry other Jewish folks. That's why, for example, Jewish parents strive to send their kids to colleges with a high percentage of Jewish students. Brandeis and BU for example. Also, that's why there are several Jewish mating sites on the Web.

Maxdancona:

Quote:

My White ethnic group once had anti-miscegenation laws that were designed to support segregation and keep the culture from changing

You've claimed on another thread, that you were 1/2 Jewish and 1/2 Wasp( whatever that is). Is the wasp part of you, the White ethnic group you're referring to? Interesting, when one considers the times that Boston wasps forever discriminated against Boston Irish including marriage, jobs ( "Irish need not apply" signs) and of course, religion. Wasps had/have no interest in having their children marry Irish Catholics!

Maxdan quote:

Quote:

Fortunately we no longer live in this type of society

This is not true. I have to guess based on what you've been saying , that your mother was not Jewish. I don't know any Jewish mother who doesn' want theie child to marry someone, who is also Jewish. If the gentile in the couple is willing to convert to Judaism, the Jewish mother may give her approval.

I don't know how Wasps think, but in general, their goal has always been to keep their money in the family. Also, many Wasps do not have a love for either Jews or Catholics,( especially the Irish). I don't think that view has changed much over the years either.

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Sorry for some typos that got thru. Shocked

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

1) We can stop calling it Jewish Nationalism when you accept that other ethnic groups are equal to yours and that their concerns are as important as your concerns. The problem isn't that you are concerned that Jewish culture "survives" (I question the meaning of that term as every culture changes over time). The problem is that you think that the interests of Jewish Culture, as you see them, trump the human rights, and freedom and even similar needs of other minority cultures.

If you were saying that all cultures have the right to express themselves and to pass on their traditions, then you would have my complete support. Modern, multi-cultural democracies are the best way to ensure freedom and equality. But you aren't saying that... you are saying your culture is more important than any other.

2) We can stop calling them anti-miscegenation laws when there are no longer laws (in Israel or elsewhere) that restrict who you can marry by ethnicity or religion. What's happening is not just a boycott (where individuals are deciding they only want to marry in their ethnic group.

What's happening is Israel is the use of force, often involving the Police, to prevent someone who wants to marry outside of his or her ethnic group from doing so.

You just continue to seemingly misconstrue my thinking. It is not that I think one culture trumps any others. I do not know, nor care. I am only interested in my culture. As a secular Jew, I am only interested in my culture regarding the survival of Judaism. As an American citizen, I am only interested in my American culture surviving relative to other nation's cultures.

I do not care what Israel does regarding prohibiting marriages between ethnic/religious groups. That is none of my business, and as I learned at 2 a.m. from the basic training sergeant, assigned to give us new recruits fatigues, etc., before we ate midnight chow, and got some sleep, we can better get through the next four years, IF WE LEARNED TO M.Y.O.B. (Mind Your Own Business). Something civilians often do not appreciate, where their jurisdiction ends, and someone else's business begins.

Stop saying what we can, or cannot, "stop calling" anything. This is not a conversation, nor discussion, nor argument. It is just my clarifying my very own perspective, which is none of your business, other than my sharing it with readers. Try to be a student of different viewpoints, rather than doing the self-righteous, I am correct, and damn Foofie until he agrees. Foofie's opinion is his own. And, you may keep your opinion too. Enjoy your opinion, it doesn't seem to be mine, simply because I do not care about what you seem to care about. It appears to me that you are just trying to prove that you have an ethical compass better than mine. Just make sure that your ethical compass lines up with the map of reality.

P.S.: Miller made some good points, in my opinion. I am not sure you would be willing to answer them, since she has pointed out that the pot shouldn't be calling the kettle black, so to speak. I believe the ethical thing is to respond to her scathing comments on those Boston Brahmins.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie Comment to Maxadana:

Quote:

P.S.: Miller made some good points, in my opinion. I am not sure you would be willing to answer them, since she has pointed out that the pot shouldn't be calling the kettle black, so to speak. I believe the ethical thing is to respond to her scathing comments on those Boston Brahmins.

MILLER:

Quote:

When Maxadana is wrong, he always retreats...

MILLER: Maxadana is just like a good little WASP..Oh my! I mean, just like a good little half-WASP! Embarrassed

:

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@Miller,

That's rather funny Miller, considering that in the US, White Protestants are the most ardent supporters, both politically and financially, of Israeli policy as informed by Jewish Nationalism.

Look at Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz (who represent the White Evengelical Protestant wind of the Republican party). No one has more hawkish, blindly supportive, views of Israeli policy than these guys. Of course, they support this because they believe that by doing this they bring in the Christian Biblical prophecy that the Jews in Israel will turn to Jesus and be saved.

Yes, it is the hardline supporters of Israel who are motivated by the desire to see Jews become Christians.

I am a humanist. My belief is that all ethnic groups should be treated fairly. Specifically in the Middle East, this would mean that there be a true multicultural democracy in the land now occupied by Israel... where there are no anti-miscegenation laws and where everyone being ruled by a government gets an equal vote in that government.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Yes, it is the hardline supporters of Israel who are motivated by the desire to see Jews become Christians.

Nyet. The hardline supporters are foremost motivated by having biblical prophecy fulfilled by having Jews in a Zionist Israel so the Second Coming can occur. And, if Jesus does return, many might be shocked to see that He's wearing a yarmulke (aka, keepa).

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Yes and when he comes it will be the end of time and time for the final judgement and a hell of a bunch of christians and jews are going be to surprised when they find themselves going to hell rather than heaven because they misinterpreted the scriptures.

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@InfraBlue,

Nobody is stopping any Palestinians from leaving the West Bank and Gaza.
Segregation, how? There are Moslem Arabs living in Israel who are free to go and come as they please. They have representation in the Israel parliament.

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@RABEL222,

What is it that you claim they do to the Palestinians?

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@JoeBruno,

The Zionists restrict Palestinian movement to Israel and between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

The Zionists segregate the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip from the rest of Israel in violation of their Right of Return as stipulated in various international resolutions. The Arabs living in Israel are systematically discriminated against by the state of Israel as reported by the Zionists' own Or Commission.

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@JoeBruno,

Murder them when they try to protect themselves from the European settlers. Its what the Isralie army does. Its an army of occupation doing its best to remove palistinians from their land any way it can.

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If You Support Israel, Join The Reverse Boycott

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