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Observations in Contradiction: Part 1

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 01:51 pm
I think the reason that people think that people who are christians are republicans is only because for the most part they are the ones touting their religions so loudly in a political setting. (not all republicans or even religious republicans do, but on average religious republicans who we think of as the "religious christian right" do forever talk about their religions.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 01:53 pm
For heaven's sake, I would take clinton's little faults any day of the week over Bush's. He was not totally devoid of character, he just had normal flaws that were in the spot light.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 02:38 pm
Walter - Thanks for the link. I agree that a funeral may not have been an appropriate place unless the family agreed with him and wanted him to voice that opinion on their behalf.

Moishe - I think you may have hit on something. I have attended numerous Baptist / fundamentalist churches. The prevailing teachings that I have picked up on is that Christians are to side with the Jews given the good vs. evil theory, the splitting of the tribes due to Abrahams two sons, but also more simplistically because the Jews are the chosen people. How would Christians ever get to heaven if we didn't side with the ones God chose? The rapture is a major concern, and one certainly wouldn't want to spend 7 years of hell on earth with locusts and flying horsemen!! Isreal figures prominantly in Revelations and the fundamentalist teachings I have experienced would certainly back choosing Isreal over Islam.

I guess the question then becomes... Why would a Democrat not do the right thing? Kerry is Catholic and Edwards Methodist. Both are of Christian faiths, and I would even go so far as to suggest that they have been so since before their 40th birthday. So, why would Bush be perceived as being the only one that can deal with evil?

(Anyone can answer. That is not directly addressed to Moishe)
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 02:53 pm
I think those who attach any strong religious consideration to the presidency are probably in a very tiny minority but they get lots of press because it makes for good press. For myself, I have more confidence in a man whom I know is a genuine believer than I have confidence in one who from all appearances only gives lip service to his professed faith.

Otherwise I put no importance at all on a person's religion unless that religion is one designed to do harm to others.
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 03:12 pm
Quote:
I guess the question then becomes... Why would a Democrat not do the right thing? Kerry is Catholic and Edwards Methodist. Both are of Christian faiths, and I would even go so far as to suggest that they have been so since before their 40th birthday. So, why would Bush be perceived as being the only one that can deal with evil?

This may be wandering a bit far afield on the religious issue but my take is based on what Kerry has said (and done).
He is of the opinion that attacking Saddam was unwise and has hurt the US.
He is also of the opinion that the good opinions of Russia, France, Germany and the UN are in the interests of the United States.

Dividing things into Good and Evil, Saddam was Evil and needed to be destroyed in the Battle against (Evil Islamic) Fascism.
In the same vein, the UN, France, Germany and Russia are corrupt cesspools that support Evil.
Now, the fact that the US has also supported Evil doesn't make us bad today.
This dichotomy can be looked at that President Bush is leading us into repentance for our past mistakes. And that these other nation refuse to repent.
And Kerry supports these other nations "interests."
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 03:33 pm
Moishe3rd wrote:
Quote:
He is also of the opinion that the good opinions of Russia, France, Germany and the UN are in the interests of the United States.And Kerry supports these other nations "interests."


Because Kerry believes it is in our best interests to keep in the good graces of other major powers, is not the same as him supporting their interests over ours. That in my opinion is an astoundingly narrow view.

Were Russia France And Germany to pool all their resources to make trouble for us they would make very much trouble indeed. We cannot stand against but so many people. Therefore the respect of those around the world has value. Pride goeth before a fall.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 03:47 pm
So, perhaps "Evil" is the catch phrase?

I understand fighting against the Islamic extremists that want to harm others, but there are other threats as well. Korea is not an Islamic state. For that matter, neither was Iraq. Recent reports have concluded that Al Qaeda / Bin Laden contacted Saddam in a request to join forces, but Saddam turned down the offer. He was not a religious man, and was not Islamic.

If Israel is the issue, or Jews in general, Carter and Clinton made more progress in that arena than any other US Presidents. Both were Democrats.

However, I can see where the use (constant!) of the term "Evil" would be a way for Bush to connect to the religious right.
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 04:50 pm
squinney wrote:
So, perhaps "Evil" is the catch phrase?

I understand fighting against the Islamic extremists that want to harm others, but there are other threats as well. Korea is not an Islamic state. For that matter, neither was Iraq. Recent reports have concluded that Al Qaeda / Bin Laden contacted Saddam in a request to join forces, but Saddam turned down the offer. He was not a religious man, and was not Islamic.

If Israel is the issue, or Jews in general, Carter and Clinton made more progress in that arena than any other US Presidents. Both were Democrats.

However, I can see where the use (constant!) of the term "Evil" would be a way for Bush to connect to the religious right.


I believe so. :wink:
I am, admittedly, biased towards the US and Israel but remember, I have never voted Republican before the last Congressional elections and I was religious and biased towards the US and Israel back then also.
The only difference is the Evil factor nowadays. I voted for Gore believing that Bush was a dim bulb (although Gore was an indecipherable bore). I now believe (because of the issue of "Good and Evil, or Moral and Immoral) that Bush is a "good" man and Gore is a stark raving lunatic. Razz
The Christians I hear or talk to are of a similiar mind.
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Swimpy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 05:32 pm
I think fear is at the basis of the support for the incumbent. Moishe is afraid of "Islamic extremists." I don't think he/she is alone. All arabs are not Islamic extremists, however. Bush has tapped in to the (dare I say?) racist underbelly of America. I don't think religion has a lot to do with it except that it justifies the already deeply held suspicion of non-christians.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 09:13 pm
I just can't buy into that Swimpy. I have not detected a racist bone in Bush's body and his life and practices and appointments suggest anything but racism. The fact is that the Qu'ran is full of inflammatory passages ordering/demanding retribution/death to the infidels and the radical extremist fundamentalist terrorists use these to justify sending gullible youths to their deaths in order to kill us. The danger is real, and there is nothing racist in recognizing it.
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2004 09:44 pm
Swimpy wrote:
I think fear is at the basis of the support for the incumbent. Moishe is afraid of "Islamic extremists." I don't think he/she is alone. All arabs are not Islamic extremists, however. Bush has tapped in to the (dare I say?) racist underbelly of America. I don't think religion has a lot to do with it except that it justifies the already deeply held suspicion of non-christians.

Of course all Arabs are not Islamic extremists. You silly boy/girl. The only hope we have in this sorry world is that Islam reforms itself and takes care of its own extremists (murdering fascist butchers...). Iraq may give them elbow room to do just that.

If you want to have Bush tapping the dark underbelly, then he is tapping the dark underbelly of the fear of being murdered. I personally do not have a racist bone in my little ol' body. Arab, Jew, white, black, brown, yellow, red, Muslim, Hindu, animist - I know them all - hire them, work for them, live with them, talk to them, like them and would let my daughter marry 'em (Okay, as long as they were Torah observant Jews.... but that's a religious thing for, not against.)
I support the president because he is doing what is politically, morally, militarily and commonsensically, the correct thing to do.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:54 am
edgarblythe wrote:
Republicans accept both their religion and party on blind faith. No amount of reasoning touches their preconcieved notions. They speak out against collectivism yet follow each other like a herd of sheep.


Word.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:56 am
Moishe3rd wrote:

I am, admittedly, biased towards the US and Israel but remember, I have never voted Republican before the last Congressional elections and I was religious and biased towards the US and Israel back then also.
The only difference is the Evil factor nowadays. I voted for Gore believing that Bush was a dim bulb (although Gore was an indecipherable bore). I now believe (because of the issue of "Good and Evil, or Moral and Immoral) that Bush is a "good" man and Gore is a stark raving lunatic. Razz
The Christians I hear or talk to are of a similiar mind.


Hi.

Read more.

Love,

Smart people.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:02 am
The problem is, while Republicans, on the surface, appear to support Christianity, they are actually puppets of the Illuminati, whose plan for a New World Order is to manipulate people into a holy war (already underway), and then take over the world, installing the Anti-Christ as supreme leader, not Jesus. Just thought I'd throw that in for some colour.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:19 am
Pretty accurate color.

I used to think that Bush was just as religious driven as some of his followers, but now I think that he just talks that to keep his religious base. I think he went to war with Iraq just because of the oil, pure and simple and all the rest is just smokescreen.

But on the whole there are a lot of Christian's who buy into all that about the rapture and how we supposedly got to get all of Israel united so that the second coming will come and that is why they always support Israel and are against Arabs who they perceive as Ishmael who was that wild man who has his hand against every man...(Gen.16:12) And it is to those sorts that Bush plays into with all this religious stuff.

(Just my personal opinion about the whole issue)
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:25 am
cavfancier wrote:
The problem is, while Republicans, on the surface, appear to support Christianity, they are actually puppets of the Illuminati, whose plan for a New World Order is to manipulate people into a holy war (already underway), and then take over the world, installing the Anti-Christ as supreme leader, not Jesus. Just thought I'd throw that in for some colour.


Again, I say: word.
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:54 am
revel wrote:
Pretty accurate color.

I used to think that Bush was just as religious driven as some of his followers, but now I think that he just talks that to keep his religious base. I think he went to war with Iraq just because of the oil, pure and simple and all the rest is just smokescreen.

But on the whole there are a lot of Christian's who buy into all that about the rapture and how we supposedly got to get all of Israel united so that the second coming will come and that is why they always support Israel and are against Arabs who they perceive as Ishmael who was that wild man who has his hand against every man...(Gen.16:12) And it is to those sorts that Bush plays into with all this religious stuff.

(Just my personal opinion about the whole issue)


Could someone explain about the oil? Anyone?
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 09:22 am
Moishe3rd
Moishe3rd, I already asked your question here:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29104&highlight=&sid=03434730a86e91d9b766bb60d6c02f17
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 09:53 am
All right. Rolling Eyes
So I posted this response:

Moishe3rd wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
My question of the year is: How did the US's oil get moved under the Arab world's sand? Did the Arabs steal it from us? When did the US notice it's oil had been sneaked across the ocean?

BBB


Okay, so you asked the question. What is supposed to be the answer?
Rolling Eyes
It's a false paradigm, so you are being sarcastic.
Wonderful.
It certainly doesn't answer my question which was:

revel wrote:
Quote:
I used to think that Bush was just as religious driven as some of his followers, but now I think that he just talks that to keep his religious base. I think he went to war with Iraq just because of the oil, pure and simple and all the rest is just smokescreen.


Could someone explain about the oil? Anyone?


at: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=797479#797479

Great.

Maybe you can mosey on over there and help me out on this one. Smile
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Redheat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 09:58 am
Squinney- Good subject

There is movement in this country by the religious right to make "Christanity" a political format. I don't have a problem with people voting for somone based on their perceptions of what "Christanity" means. However I take exception with the fact that they only go by what is SAID and not what is done.

How is killing 10,000 innocent people based on lies considered a "Christian" act?

Placing the concerns of Corporations over the health of children, is this an act of a "christian"?

Breaking promises to childrens groups, first responders or anyone for that matter part of being a good "Christian"

Outing a CIA operative good "Christian"?

Fact is that saying you are "Christian" doesn't make you one and it's a little disappointing that people who base their standards for a "Christian" on so little. Basically, gay marriage, abortion and stem cell research.

I seen a woman on TV that was against the Iraq war and thought we should not be there, BUT she planned on voting for Bush because he was a good "Christian" the hypocrisy of her stance seemed to allude her.
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