Is the Universe Infinite?

John,

I see no need for a "Big Bang". Mechanically speaking I also can see no need for a universe to be limited in either space or time. If it is limited then what would limit it?

I keep coming up against an infinity or an eternity---(unless one defines the Universe in such a way to limit it)

The "Big Bang" (IMO natch)is an attempt to limit the Universe, perhaps to knock it down to a humanly comprehensible size. The "Creation" is another attempt.

And if there exists a "Supreme Immortal Eternal Intelligence" I suspect that there was always some place for Him to "Lord over". How would you have an "Infinite Intelligence" without at least an "infinite thought". If the Universe is "Gods Thought" why would you limit it

Thalion,
I see no reason why it would have to curve in upon itself except due to the location of the observer. From each observers point of view it would appear to curve in upon itself. That limited point of view probably has no counterpart in observations, to say nothing of reality (whatever that is) when you consider the possibility and views of other observers. It seems to have more to do with the mechanical limitations of electromagnetic waves than with limits to the Universe. Have a good evening

I just can't get my mind wrapped around the idea of an infinite amount of space.

Strangely enough, I CAN get it wrapped around an infinity of time.

The science guys seem to think that a big bang DID occur so I'm going with that idea. Further, there are some scientists who believe that the universe will quit expanding and begin to collapse. My thoughts are that the collapse will lead to another big bang. And that this has been going on forever. And that it will continue to go on forever. The universe always was, is now, and forever shall be pulsating.

I don't believe that the universe has its own intelligence nor that it was created by an intelligence.

John, I share the same perspective. As you put it:
"I just can't get my mind wrapped around the idea of an infinite amount of space.
Strangely enough, I CAN get it wrapped around an infinity of time."

AkaMechsmith, you ask "if the universe is limited, what would limit it? Excellent question. Similarly, I think I should say that the universe is absolute because I can't imagine anything outside of it, something for it to be relative to.
But notice that we are not talking so much about the metaphysical status of the universe as we are talking about our mental experience (of "it").

JL & John,

IMO an absolute infinity seems to be a hard thing for a mind to wrap itself around. Personally I spent close to thirty years forcing my "mind" to accept what my "brain " "knew".

An infinity must necessarily have no beginning and no end. It simply must exist. This is completely foreign to the human experience and we are not well equipped mentally to deal with infinity. Yes we can discuss one, think about one, and even claim to visualize one but I am afraid that our sophisticated discussions of one are always backed up by a little mental reservation that there must be an end to it somewhere-sometime.

But "mechanically speaking" there seems to be no need for an end to either time or space that is not predicated by our point of view. Our point of view is "mechanically" limited by the very nature of light. So is the point of view of every other intelligent being that may exist or ever existed. Everything that exists exists in the very center of a Universe that "looks" like it is "expanding". Since it "looks like" it is expanding it also looks like it has an "epicenter" ie. a Big Bang a "Creation", or a mathematical "singularity". It also must have a region of Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) activity. I also suspect that there must be a region of Cosmic Extra Long Wave Radiation activity except that the nature of ELF (Extra Low Frequency) ( used in Submarine communications) may preclude our observing one. Submarines and planets operate within somewhat different environments. :wink:

When I tried to persuade my mind that an infinity may possibly exist I used the trick of drawing a straight line with a pencil forever. When the pencil needed replacing I got a whole factory full of pencils and kept on mentally drawing a straight line. When the factory ran out of pencils I bought a forest and made pencils. When I ran out of trees I got a planet and made pencils out of its trees. Finally (I think) my mind accepted the fact that there would always be planets to make pencils out of to draw straight lines with. I actually spent years at it, ruminating in the back of my mind much of the time.

I have spoken on these threads to people who have much more "proven" abilities in mathematics than I ever hope to attain. Even these persons who claimed to be able to easily understand the concept of infinity or eternity presented clearly erroneous examples as indications of their understanding. It is rough to get your mind around, no doubt about it.

IMO since an infinity is so difficult for us to understand we invented Gods, religion, "Big Bangs" and alternate dimensions to deal with infinities so as we can go about the more immediate business of killing sabretoothed tigers or making a living which happen to be a little more pressing considering our needs to stay alive and eat.

Jl, Specifically I can see no mechanical reason why the Universe needs to be limited in time or space. Since there is nothing to limit it why should we assume it is limited merely because our view of the Universe is limited by "mechanical problems beyond our control", ie. the nature of light. Perhaps also by natural limits on our imaginations.

If you cannot get your mind wrapped around an infinity of space or volume, rest assured, you are not alone. It's the most difficult thing to do that I have ever pursued. I am certainly not sure that I have done it myself yet Best, M

MSmith, it actually does not disturb, or even interest, me that I cannot imagine spatial or temporal "infinity." What DOES interest me is that we humans can, and sometimes must, invent constructs whose referents do not exist or are unimaginable, e.g., unicorns and square circles. I cannot only not imagine infinite time (notwithstanding my earlier statement about time) and space, but I have still greaterl difficulty imagining FINITE time and space. What could possible exist at the end, or before the beginning, of time and space?

I suspect that the ultimate reality is not touched by ANY of our concepts. We are making up our own little reality. Mystics claim not do that; their "reality" is not something they profess to, or try to, grasp either cognitively or perceptually. It has nothing to do with an "objective" reality apart from them; it IS them, their every action and experience moment by moment. It is a perspective that is both profoundly grand (almost arrogant sounding) and profoundly humble.
Amen

Yep JL,

IMO, natch there is a very good probability that the mystical view of "IS" is indeed related to reality, whatever that is .

I oftentimes think that the physicists, mystics, and preachers have no idea of how many assumptions that cannot be observed that they are promoting.

Even an Athiest has to believe in something . Perhaps it could be said that failure to believe is tantamount to failure to exist. But I am not sure I believe that either Happy thoughts, M

Mystics profess to make no assumptions, to have gone beyond that framework. They have no beliefs, as mystics. They may put on the philosopher's hat and try to talk non-dualistically and paradoxically about the unitary/variable Reality. But they are most faithful to their vision when they are silent. I mean completely silent, even in their heads. And you may be right on the mark when you say that "failure to believe is tantamount to failure to exist." The mystic ceases to exist as a separate and distinct ego/self surrounded by a world of all that is non-self. In giving up all belief he becomes nothing and because of that everything.

By "giving up all belief", I mean something more subtle than absolute agnosticism (THAT, as you will remind us, is a kind of belief or doctrine). I mean non-attachment to beliefs. All people must act on the basis of assumptions, images, ideas, fantasies, plans. And these are based on shared cultural constructs. The mystic uses them, but s/he does not "attach" to them. That word, attachment, is difficult to define.

john - jlN;

as an exercise to obtain a analogous concept of infinity (actually in my head this is no analogy, but actuality) consider the known universe as an atom in a molecule within a universe of the 'next' magnitude.
When you get your mind wrapped around the potential of that concept, going the next step to infinity is, perhaps, just the last stop on the train to everywhere!

I seriously see the known and experiential universe, the one we exist in, and can observe to a point, is just one of an infinite matrix of universes; not 'alternate', but contiguous, going on in all directions, forever.

And if you can grasp infinite time, then infinite space, being the generator of the temporal relationships of all mass in the universe, is, in effect, the same thing.

And at the point of divesting all ties of belief, and conceptual attatchment, we become at once a 'part' of, and 'all' of the universe.

BoGoWo, your fantasy is, to me, quite plausible.

Nice post, JLN. Sort of started to remind me of something I may have known thousands of years ago.

I found this quote hilarious: I am mystified by mysticism.

JL,

I am afraid that it is impossible to eliminate belief. I've been trying now simply to sort out belief from observations and deductions.

T'ain't as easy as it looks. :wink: but I am not quite ready to quit yet

akaMechsmith, there is no need to give up having beliefs (we should always, of course, try to replace destructive and stupid beliefs with constructive and smart beliefs). The task, as I see it, to see them for what they are: just beliefs. One of the ways to meditate is to carefully and neutrally examine your mental processes, including the sensations of "believing." In this way, you transcend them. You do not "reject" them. That is a kind of attachment to them. You de-attach yourself from them while not necessarily throwing them away. It's a subtle process requiring time, patience and effort. Remember, the main concept here is attachment, being "caught" by your beliefs. To try to defend them or to try to reject them is virtually the same regarding attachment. Just see through them; see them for what they are, neither absolutely right nor wrong. Illusory. These illusions can be correct or incorrect, by whatever logical or scientific criteria. That's not the point. Mystical maturity does not consist in having mystical beliefs; it is a form of freedom from attachment to all beliefs. It is a condition of relative or complete liberation from illusions.

ExtraMedium. It's all mysterious, isn't it?

Doubt yourself until you no longer doubt yourself; that's how I read it. But you find there's alway something "upholding" even that temporary certainty and the cycle starts again to penetrate even deeper. So the question is how far does one travel to reach that reality beyond whose membrane there is no advancement?

It's a defective rhetorical question...a theory never resolved that always remains. But strangely enough, life itself is just LIKE THAT! So why not screw around to see what we can see!

Not too swift; that must be one of the most circuitous, sensible sounding, comments that i have encountered!

BoGoWo

I often find myself close to an ultimate reality after a prolonged dizzy spell

Divine vertigo?

Divine vertigo?

Yes! until i fall down and hurt myself!

Extra Medium - The globe example is only an analogy for explanation purposes and cannot be used to actually represent the universe. No, there is nothing outside the "globe", b\c everything that exists is defined as being on the "globe".

Time being combined with matter, would also not have existed before matter existed.

An interesting exercise is to take time out, sit back and mentally subtract everything from the universe that doesn't absolutely have to be in it. Start with eliminating the earth, moon, planets, our sun, other stars, galaxies, comets, asteroids, etc. etc. etc. Try as you will, it is impossible to mentally eliminate time and space, and that is infinity.