(shrug) For what it's worth, I also think that many sentences for violent crime are too short. I just feel that all doubt needs to be completely eliminated before an irreversible decision is made and carried out, and I don't think that is the case in Illinois right now.
Anywho, I think we've butted heads about this in the past, and I don't see minds changing here.
(And god DANG that is one funny looking baby...)
(I think... I feel... Man, weenieism on display, eh?)
(Hmm, you were right, though. <zip> Now how'd she know that?)
crime
PD, again I agree with you. It's the irreversability of executions that should make Max and friend less eager to do the irrevocable. It's not out of compassion or kindness that I favor Ryan's decision, it's because of the facts that he learned in office, after campaigning for capital punishment in more naive times. I also agree that VIOLENT people should--in many cases--be kept off the streets for longer period of times. After all, encarceration functions PRIMARILY to protect the public.
pdog: I know weenies, good sir.
And you are no weenie.
Yes it is, and to put to rest any misconceptions to the contrary, it is NOT max!!
One area where we could certainly reach consensus is that recidivist criminals need to be out of circulation from mainstream society.
I'm thinking Australia.....
HEY!
It worked once, it could work again!
Yeah, but there were no crazed Aussie footballers there back then. 'Twould be cruel and unusual punishment now.
...not to mention crazed Aussie bunnies...
excellent "sidestepping-the-issue" animation...
(I thought of it more like a "what have I said I'm doomed I shall now commence to frantically run for my life" animation.)
(Oh yes, it is taking a powder, isn't it?)
(News Alert: Derailed thread...)
Max D
Capital punishment rather than capital driving
In an attempt to get this puppy out of the ditch, (due in no small part to my own tangential thinking) the question that immediately comes to mind is how to warehouse all of these criminals for the rest of their lives.
We are already building prisons faster than schools in this country. I see very little utility in providing recidivist criminals free cable, three hot meals, and all the drugs and sex they want for the rest of their lives on the public dime.
I would rather spend that money on schools, personally.
death penalty
MaxD, you say you'd rather spend the cost of extended encarceration on schools. Me too, but what should we DO with those violent people other than kill them or let them go free to commit more violence?
Dadeo --
You ain't gonna like my answer, but, the way I see it, you could a lot could be done to redress prison proliferation (and a variety of other problems) by calling a halt to the so-called "war on drugs." But since we're trying to stay away from further tangential thinking, I don't think I'll be opening up that can of worms...
More to the point, a smattering of numbers from
a site, which I by no means wish to vouch for as a definitive source; just a little something to get the ball rolling:
Quote:A Duke University study found... "The death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life." ( The costs of processing murder cases in North Carolina / Philip J. Cook, Donna B. Slawson ; with the assistance of Lori A. Gries. [Durham, NC] : Terry Sanford Institute of Public Policy, Duke University, 1993.)
"The death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level." (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988).
"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )
"Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution."
(Miami Herald, July 10, 1988).
"Florida calculated that each execution there costs some $3.18 million. If incarceration is estimated to cost $17000/year, a comparable statistic for life in prison of 40 years would be $680,000."
(The Geography of Execution... The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America, Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood 1997 p.6)
pdog: I am deeply crushed.
You ain't been paying attention if you think that I would somehow come to the defense of the indefensible and advocate continuing the institutionalized charade that IS the "War on Drugs".
But, that is another thread, isn't it?
Hmmm. Academic studies conducted by institutions that are predisposed to advocate vehemently against the death penalty.
I'm skeptical.
Those incarceration for life figures do not include the cost of building more jails, they assume that the jails have expandable walls.
If the new construction costs are factored in, I sincerely believe that you would see a 180 in the figures.
On this I would agree, things are getting more expensive.
Quote:Hmmm. Academic studies conducted by institutions that are predisposed to advocate vehemently against the death penalty. I'm skeptical.
Max...Skepticism is valuable, and I think you ought to reserve your supply...the Duke finding is reflected in every other study I've seen referenced on the subject. It seems counter-intuitive, but execution
is more costly.
The other argument for the death penalty is the 'message' thing...other folks in the community will see the head on the pike, get scared, and the next time they are insanely drunk will be less likely to hop into the SUV, drive over to Big Ben's Bazooka Barn, then speed back and shoot cousin Biff. But studies show deterence doesn't result from the execution penalty either.
This leaves us with the deep and abiding happiness derived from vengeance.
So, yours is a position that would advocate returning the carrying out of vengeance to the families, who, seeing that the state would only seek to relocate the offender, (in many instances, improving his/her lifestyle) would take it upon themselves to mete out justice.
No wonder so many death penalty opponents are anti-carry.
I am not so inclined, on either matter.
As to your Duke study, of course it is referenced elsewhere. Every anti-death penalty advocate worth their salt should be leading with this and referencing it at every opportunity.
After all, it is so... ACADEMIC, and, and, and, it is....DUKE!Forcryingoutloud!
Assuming for the moment that your (and Duke's) contention that execution IS more expensive (which I again maintain the cost of building additional jails is not factored into the equation) I would put to you that it certainly does not have to be.
I can't speak for Canada, but here in the States, deep and abiding happiness is not equated with vengeance, which is precisely why it SHOULD be the domain of the state, not the individual.
max
No, it's not that the Duke study is referenced everywhere, it is that studies from a multiplicity of sources (in the US and out) come to the same conclusion. And have for years.
Cost of prison building is a red herring. Take any other European country (or Canada) and there aren't enough convicted murderers to fill a lawn bowling grandstand. I admit you guys are a little unusual down there what with all the killin you get up to, but your present prison-building boom has other causes.
So, if electro-crisping bad guys doesn't save money, and doesn't reduce further such bad guy acts...what the hell is the resistance to ending executions, if not a love of vengeance. Now someone will likely pipe up and say "It gives much needed closure to the family's effected". For which non-anecdotal evidence would be requested.
