South Carolina Flag

@farmerman,

Quote:

Why not base symbols of their "heritage " on something positive??

Because ordinary people had it first .

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https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/10733763_853390208069048_3211340030537248007_o.jpg

No, that guy is not Lincoln just a look alike on the Southern side . Some of the original flags were pink as red was hard to come by...

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@Ionus,

It's the issuing of the First Battle Flags to Generals P.G. T. Beauregard, Earl Van Dorn, Joseph Johnston and Leonidas Polk. A painting "The First Battle Flags" by Don Troiani.

Quote:

After confusing sight of United States Flags and Confederate First National Flags on the battlefields of Manassas, General Beauregard requested a new Battle Flagbe designed for use in the field.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

But why that flag, the battle flag of the Confederate States, specifically?

It wasn't "the" battle flag of the Confederate states. They had many different battle flags.

The reason why that flag in particular was probably because it was the most visually striking out of all the Confederate flags.

Also, when there was a push to fly the flags over the state capitols, flying an actual national flag of the Confederacy over a state capitol might have had legal significance. A mere battle flag, on the other hand, did not signify issues of national sovereignty.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

The "Army of Northern Virginia" was some hick outfit commanded by some hick named Lee.

I probably should have reviewed wikipedia before I posted about the flag. It turns out that the Army of Northern Virginia used a square version of the flag.

The more rectangular version of the flag was flown by the Army of Tennessee.

farmerman wrote:

They used "The Stainless Flag" as a battle flag after it hd been used as THE Confederacy Flag for a year.

The Stainless was one of the Confederacy's national flags. I am skeptical that the Army of Northern Virginia would use that flag instead of their usual battle flag. Is there a cite?

farmerman wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Just because some extremists choose to adopt the flag as a symbol of their hate, and then some opposing extremists decide to hate the flag, that shouldn't prevent non-extremists from enjoying the flag as a non-hateful symbol.

Thought that all up yourself?

I do tend to compose my own thoughts. But the idea of being tolerant and understanding is not something that I personally invented.

farmerman wrote:

You should write speeches for Chris Christie. He seems to relish these sorta Orwellian jaunts into literary nonsense

I do not view tolerance and respect as Orwellian nonsense.

farmerman wrote:

Thats because you take slave holding as something over which to reminisce

That's just plain silly.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

This heraldic nitpicking is silly. The confederate flag is clearly racist in intent. Those too stupid to acknoledge this are either skinheads themselves or believe that crap about "Their heritage"

Lots of people fly that flag with no racism whatsoever in their intent.

That someone bothers to point out facts that you don't want to hear, does not mean they are stupid.

farmerman wrote:

Why not base symbols of their "heritage " on something positive??

The Confederate battle flag IS something positive.

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

those clowns from the north...you know, the ones who fought the war to prevent succession but later claimed it was to free the slaves .

One of the things I've always found disturbing is that Lincoln's original PRO-slavery amendment is still on the books awaiting ratification.

Not likely that it will ever be ratified. But still, it would be nice if it were withdrawn somehow.

Withdrawing that proposed amendment seems more productive to me than telling southerners that they aren't allowed to be proud of the south.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

I do remember a movie about the Vietnam Era and there were images of the Confederate Flag above a foxhole with soldiers. Knowing the marksmen ability of many Southern whites, I would have been happy to be in that foxhole, rather than in a foxhole with preppie types from a northern state. How soon we forget that their supposed idosyncracies had a value.

"During World War II some U.S. military units with Southern nicknames, or made up largely of Southerners, made the flag their unofficial emblem. The USS Columbia flew a Confederate Navy Ensign as a battle flag throughout combat in the South Pacific in World War II. This was done in honor of Columbia, the ship's namesake and the capital city of South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union. Some soldiers carried Confederate flags into battle. After the Battle of Okinawa a Confederate flag was raised over Shuri Castle by a Marine from the self-styled "Rebel Company" (Company A of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines). It was visible for miles and was taken down after three days on the orders of General Simon B. Buckner, Jr. (son of Confederate general Simon Buckner, Sr.), who stated that it was inappropriate as "Americans from all over are involved in this battle". It was replaced with the regulation, 48-star flag of the United States.[33]"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

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@oralloy,

Quote:

One of the things I've always found disturbing is that Lincoln's original PRO-slavery amendment is still on the books awaiting ratification.

Withdrawing that would do more practical good than banning flags .

1 Reply

@Ionus,

If your tlking bout th Corwin Amendment, tht ws passed by the Senate before Lincoln took the oath. Buhanan i given the "credit" for all that . Had it not died in the rtiication process, Lincolns later push to the 13th amendment would hve repealled it anyway.
I think Lincoln just didnt want to start anything badass until he was safely in office and he knew where all this seession would led.

Corwin amendment was kind of political flapdoodle and linguistic jiggery pokery.

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@farmerman,

See for instance:

Arizona Law Review: WHAT IN THE CONSTITUTION CANNOT BE AMENDED?

Richard Albert, Boston College Law School: The Unamendable Corwin Amendment

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@Walter Hinteler,

do we read that it would have been safe from repeal too?

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@farmerman,

That's how I understand it (but I'm certainly no expert in US constitutional law).

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

If your talking bout the Corwin Amendment, that was passed by the Senate before Lincoln took the oath. Buchanan is given the "credit" for all that.

Not when I'm doling out the credit.

I credit the entire horror to Lincoln.

http://philmagness.com/?page_id=398

farmerman wrote:

Had it not died in the ratification process, Lincolns later push to the 13th amendment would have repealled it anyway.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

farmerman wrote:

I think Lincoln just didn't want to start anything badass until he was safely in office and he knew where all this secession would led.

I think Lincoln was willing to enshrine slavery in the Constitution forever if he could have preserved the Union in the process.

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@oralloy,

AAAHHHH conspiracy.
The timeline alone dispells such thinking. The Crittendon compromise was initiated late the previous year and before SC had seceeded. Crittenden wasnt gonna go anywhere (Mostly because of incoming president Lincoln's position against xtending slavery in the states) so the Corwin Amendment was an attempt , with Seward as the "brains" trying to convince Lincoln that his uncompromising position would not be well met in flyover country. Lincolns promise "Not to object to Corwin" helped get it through congress. Was it conspiracy with Lincoln at the figurative helm?? other historians seem to be convinced that this was all about the failure of the tims that should have been met in 1830 and 1850.

Hell, Lincoln is already given credit as the reason for the Civil War by his very election. Isnt it something that, as the states left the Union, the start of th rush to the door also began before Lincoln took office. He may have served as a "lst straw: issue but hes also the reason that the war was won an the country re connected.

As for th flag of the confedercy, I think the governor of South Carolina was as elgant as she could be in voicing her reasons for wanting its removal on the state office complex.
"I was irreversably changed as a result of the recent murders in the church sanctuary"

Her other comments that speak of, and I paraphrase,
"When we celebrate our heritage , that is good, but when we callously ignore the fact that this symbol is hurtful to so many people, we are not really celebrating anything but an ability to inflict pain on others"
WHat she said was really waay more short nd clever but it made its point with the legislature (I presume).
SO the flag is history on public buildings. Maybe we should move on

I see around here that the local hillbillies have all bought new ones and are hanging em from their front porches along with their collections of large kitchen appliances and have them sticking out of the beds of thir Dodge pickemups.

My question in all of this has been from day 1. what the hell is Mississippi going to do. Their state flag IS the rebel flag and nobody's been talkin about them.

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First, secession was rank stupidity. As long as the southern delegations remained in congress, it was not possible to pass any proposed amendment which would abolish slavery. Even had such an amendment passed, to this day, there were sufficient slave states to block the ratification of any such amendment. It was a classic case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

But more importantly, the cliques of politically powerful men in the southern states who were hot for war started a war that they could not hope to win, they got their asses kicked (surprise, surprise!) and they've been whining about it ever since.

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@Setanta,

I suppose it could be said that, the one thing that was securely part of the mid 19th century SOUTH's heritage WAS secession .

ANYWAY, this is all under the bridge, how bout we has some hush puppies and side meat?

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@farmerman,

summa the best shrimp come fromSouth Carolina. They are sweet and tasty. We get em fresh each fall when a local seafood guy begins his seasonal seafood sales(He recognized early that winter and the holidays are a missed seafood season )

South Carolina flag can now have a palmetto, a steamed shrimp and a "Yall come down now, hear?"

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South Carolina Flag

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