NEA endorses Kerry

tony2481 wrote:

If pledging billions of other peoples' money made education better, why are Washington DC's public schools the worst in the country, while spending $14,000 per student per year?

All the criticizms of the "No Child Left Behind Act" are that it is "too hard" to comply.

Is it a bad idea to set high goals? Even if you fail to achieve these especially high standards, arent you likely to do better than if you had no standards to measure your progress in the first place?

Money won't solve the schools' problems, everybody's hard work will.

Tony,

You don't know what you are talking about. There are many valid criticisms of the "No Child Left Behind Act".

1) The focus on rigid tests is mathematically and scientifically invalid. The test results are strongly correlated solely to parents income.

2) It provides additional requirements on school districts without the funding to do them.

3) The result of the act is shifting resources from poor districts to wealthy ones, where the need would clearly dictate they should go the other way.

4) It does not address the critical need for math and science teachers.

5) It pressures teachers and districts to "teach to the test" which has been proven to reduce the critical thinking skills that employers and educators alike say is the key to education.

6) It contradicts the findings in districts that have shown real improvement.

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As I see it, the NEA exists simply to maintain a status quo of education failing more and more every year. It is an organization that cares far more about protecting teachers than about educating children.

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ebrown_p wrote:

There are many valid criticisms of the "No Child Left Behind Act".

1) The focus on rigid tests is mathematically and scientifically invalid. The test results are strongly correlated solely to parents income.

3) The result of the act is shifting resources from poor districts to wealthy ones, where the need would clearly dictate they should go the other way.

5) It pressures teachers and districts to "teach to the test" which has been proven to reduce the critical thinking skills that employers and educators alike say is the key to education.

6) It contradicts the findings in districts that have shown real improvement.

These 4 aren't "valid criticisms" of The No Child Left Behind Act. They are the result of bad implementation of standardized testing, people (almost entirely at the state and local levels) using the tests for other things than their intended purposes and State's and local communities making budgetary cuts on their own which is entirly outside the scope of NCLB.

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Karzak wrote:

As I see it, the NEA exists simply to maintain a status quo of education failing more and more every year. It is an organization that cares far more about protecting teachers than about educating children.

Karzak,

What is this observation based on. Do you have any real experience or are you just mindlessly parroting the conservative line.

I am sorry but it really pisses me off that many conservatives want to improve education by bashing teachers. It seems obvious to me that teachers must be at the core of any education reform. You can't continue to berate and ignore the people in the classroom.

Teachers are the core of education. They know what the students need and what they need. If you want to make education better you should listen to the teachers and give them the support and resources they need to do their job.

The NEA does quite a bit for teachers other than political advocacy. They provide the support and resources that teachers need.

However most teachers support the NEA. Their role in giving teachers a voice in their area of expertise is appreciated.

Oh... and welcome to A2K.

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Thank you all for your responses. I have been having trouble with my ISP, and it has taken a toll this morning.

I'll be back later to iterate and address all comments directed to me. In the interim, please read my original preface, and we will address these points together.

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I agree with those who said it would have been more surprising if the nea rejected kerry. I don't think it will hurt him.

If people were polled, I bet the majority would rather pay more taxes for education than for anything more for Iraq or even the military. Usually how those war hawks get the public to support more money for the military is by saying it is for the troops. But I think the public is finally getting wise to the fact that very little of it actually goes to the troops. JMO

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First of all, my original post did two things:

Clarification of the term "union"
And the examination of the NEA as a lobby.

Then the question of whether or no the endorsement will hurt Kerry.

I have been both a teacher and a parent, and I see the flaws in the system from both viewpoints.

The problem with merit pay is, who shall decide which teachers deserve the merit pay and upon what criteria that will be based, because once again, politics is involved.

Finn, I think you and I got involved in an adjective type thing which was completely off course (not in my syllabus). You, as one would naturally expect, are looking at the system based on your personal experiences with your family. James Coleman was responsible for the busing of students based on his theory that disadvantaged children could learn from advantaged ones. He later recanted.

It is my opinion that standardized testing inhibits progress in learning by too narrowly defining what a testing center sees as acceptable.

I have taught with some excellent teachers, and I have taught with some of the dumbest damn people that I have ever met. The problem in that situation, had to do with hiring practices at the superintendent level.

As for the taxes, the per capita idea would place the responsibility on everyone as opposed to property owners. Each person in America has a stake in a well educated child, because they are the future of a country.

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I must amend my last post to read " per capita tax on a local level."

The following link takes us to a pie chart to show the allocation of Federal funds.

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

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Re: NEA endorses Kerry

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Letty wrote:
The National Education Association has endorsed Kerry ...
Quote:

You're kidding? Who would have expected that?

It's almost as surprising as learning that ebrown_p was a teacher.

What amazing turn of events could be next?

An endorsement from the NY Times?

Good job on associating ebrown and teacher in order to make them both seem like dirty, liberal things. Teachers suck as we all know. It's soldiers that are important, and you can't grease a war machine with a well educated
population.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Karzak wrote:
As I see it, the NEA exists simply to maintain a status quo of education failing more and more every year. It is an organization that cares far more about protecting teachers than about educating children.

Teachers are the core of education.

Hmm, I would have thought that students were the core of education.

The NEA exists to serve the teachers, not the students. I every issue from school choice to vouchers to required competancy testing the NEA has moved to protect a system that IS failing kids and gets worse every years.

This is to be expected, of course, the NEA is a teachers union, not a students union, it just bothers me to see teachers defend the NEA as protecting education when it does not.

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Check this out, Karzak, and perhaps you'll see that what eBrown is doing, is part of what teacher's do for students:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=753&e=5&u=/ap/20040706/ap_on_re_us/teachers_science

For some of you that I may not have acknowledged, I appreciate all your comments. Whether it is dissent or assent, or just being an observer, all is valuable if it makes us consider issues.

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Letty wrote:

Check this out, Karzak, and perhaps you'll see that what eBrown is doing, is part of what teacher's do for students:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=753&e=5&u=/ap/20040706/ap_on_re_us/teachers_science

Did you read that article? The basic premise is that the teachers are undereducated and incompetent when it comes to science. I personally agree, and would include the same for math and english as well.

The NEA fights tooth and nail against any attempt to remove incompetent teachers, or even to have competency tests given to teachers.

There is no doubt that america's schools are poorly run, but who fights for this status quo of mediocracy? The NEA.

The NEA is the problem, not the solution.

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Karzak wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
Karzak wrote:
As I see it, the NEA exists simply to maintain a status quo of education failing more and more every year. It is an organization that cares far more about protecting teachers than about educating children.

Teachers are the core of education.

Hmm, I would have thought that students were the core of education.

The NEA exists to serve the teachers, not the students. I every issue from school choice to vouchers to required competancy testing the NEA has moved to protect a system that IS failing kids and gets worse every years.

This is to be expected, of course, the NEA is a teachers union, not a students union, it just bothers me to see teachers defend the NEA as protecting education when it does not.

Karzak,

The interests of teacher are the interests of students are one and the same. Your implication that somehow the teachers are opposed to the students is both offensive and ignorant.

The NEA supports many initiatives that any reasonable person would agree with. This includes smaller class sizes, providing classroom resources and materials and teacher development. They also advocate for recruitment of qualified teachers.

It is very difficult to make the argument that required competency testing is in the interest of kids. These tests away classroom time and lessens meaningful learning experiences. It has been shown to lower critical thinking skills. There are no studies that show any benefit that has come from this type of regionally mandated testing. There are many studies that show that it hurts learning experiences.

The issue of vouchers is a political issue of freedom versus fairness. Vouchers have been shown to favor wealthy kids. They reduce options for poor kids and take resources away from public education. This can be argued politically, but you should be intellectually honest in your argument. It is natural for teachers to oppose them in the interest of the students in public education. Vouchers are a negative for most students.

Finally, you repeat the much quoted myth that the system "is failing kids" and "get's worse every year". There is little more than political slogans here. The data do not back either claim. That you repeat it shows that you do not understand the issues involved.

Teachers are the core of education because they alone are with the students. They understand the needs of the students. When the teachers succeed the students succeed.

It is obvious that you have learned the conservative cliches very well. Your rhetoric doesn't show any kind of real thought or understanding of these issues.

The fact is you can not remove teachers from the education system. We need qualified professionals in the classroom who are well prepared and have the resources and support they need.

Good teachers are in the classrom because of the kids, and say what you will, there are many good teachers. They oppose standardized tests and vouchers because they are with the kids and know what they need.

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ebrown_p wrote:

The interests of teacher are the interests of students are one and the same.

Saying it over and over won't make it true.

There is no doubt that US education has been in decline for a long time. There is no doubt that teachers, through their unions, lobby for the staus quo, and for more money, and fight any attempt at reforming a broken system.

The NEA is the enemy of quality education.

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Karzak, What do you do for a living?

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Letty wrote:

Karzak, What do you do for a living?

Work in R&D in a telecom field, truthfully it is difficult due to the substandard education I recieved at the hands of incompetent but tenured teachers Laughing

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and what, exactly, is R&D? I smile, looking back,at one of my sixth grade teachers who said, "It's not a sin to get lice, but it's a sin to keep 'em". I feel the same way about ignorance. It's not a sin to be ignorant, but it's a sin to stay that way.

The last time that I went to a convention at the state level, was a total waste of time. We heard from teacher of the year, who promptly quit and went on the road to tout the impotence of teachers.

Well, thank God that politicians aren't tenured. They can only screw us over for eight years, right?

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I notice that most on this site blame teachers for all our education problems. I have a different slant on the education of our childern. It is mostly the fault of parents who are too busy doing other things to keep track of what thier childern are doing in school. I have been involved in our local educational system as a parent and grandparent. When our school has a parent meeting including the childern about 20% of the parents show up. When the teachers try to have individual teacher parent meetings about 10% show. Some teachers shouldent be teachers because they arnt suited for the job. But most of the teachers I have met and known have done the best they can under the rules they have to work under. Perhaps we should eliminate the parents who dont show the interest in thier childern that they should.

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Karzak wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:

The interests of teacher are the interests of students are one and the same.

Saying it over and over won't make it true.

There is no doubt that US education has been in decline for a long time. There is no doubt that teachers, through their unions, lobby for the staus quo, and for more money, and fight any attempt at reforming a broken system.

The NEA is the enemy of quality education.

Karzak,

You keep on repeating the same tired old political slogans with neither logic nor facts to back up your claims.

I have shown why the interests of teachers and students are the same. You haven't answered my argument at all. Please tell me...

Why aren't lower class sizes better for students?
Why aren't prepared teachers with the resources they need better for students?
Why isn't more flexibility and local control of curriculum better for students?
Why isn't better compensation that attracts more professionals into the classroom better for students?
Why is basing school funding on tests that have been shown to be closely correlated to parent salaries good for students?
Why is taking out wealthy students from public schools leaving kids whose families can't afford other options in schools with less resources good for students?

In nearly every way, teachers and students have the same interests.

Quote:

There is no doubt that US education has been in decline for a long time.

There most certainly is a doubt.

What are you basing this claim on other than a blind acceptance of political slogans? Such a brash claim should be backed up by facts.

The research shows that this is simply not the case. Longitudinal studies as well as international studies that control for the percentage of students in the population who are taking such tests do not show a decline.

Your argument is neither logical nor supported by the facts.

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I realize that answering shrill political slogans with real data is rude. I apologize in advance for any discomfort.

Karzak wrote:

There is no doubt that US education has been in decline for a long time.

The real data is given here:
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard//pubs/main1999/2000469.asp

You will note modest increases in performance for reading math and science over the past 30 years or so and a slight decrease in writing and science scores for 17 year olds in the 1970's.

Some people will always yell "the sky is falling" to support their dubious political stances. The data available contradicts this myth.

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NEA endorses Kerry

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