Army Stage managed Fall Hussein Statue

Nobody has offended me, despite my last few posts. I felt that Finn was being overly aggressive toward me, but it's no big thing.

To view all actions in Iraq in the most cynical light and as a manifestation of American manipulation is to deny the nobility and courage of Iraqis.

If there was convincing evidence that the event was staged, it would be appropriate to call out those of us who believe what we saw was a genuine expression of courage and elation.

There is not.

If positions were reversed, how many people would dismiss the courage of American citizens in bringing down the statue of their oppressor, and presume it to have been the stage work of Iraqi PsyOps?

Without absolute proof of either position, you get to choose your speculations. You can choose the one that diminishes everyone involved, or you can choose the one that uplifts us all.

Take your pick.

Actually, Finn - most of us do not have such a simplistic, black/white, on/off, this/that view of the world.

Makes for a good moment of shallow rhetoric for those who don't think, though - good try.

Generally, people are able to entertain the notion of several things being true at once.

Nobody here - if you take the time to actually READ their arguments - has in any way sought to diminish the courage and joy of the Iraqi folk that were there.

What HAS been proposed is that the American military used the opportunity to make the events seem a great deal bigger and more universal than they were as a propaganda exercise to prop up support for the war.

If you think this view excludes appreciation for the Iraqis who were there, well, the diminishment is in you mind, nobody else's.

Btw:

Last month, the Center for Army Lessons Learned posted the study HERE

However, the web version of the Army document is coded in such a way that it cannot be downloaded, or copied, or printed out. It must be read online at the Army site, or not at all.

It has been publicly available now and can now be found - and downloaded or printed - HERE.

Good find Walter. Would have saved me some typing time if I'd found it... But then the bunny can probably open that one anyway.

It has been online only since a short time :wink:

Does that little wink mean you knew where when you told me what I was looking for... and purposely stood mute while searched and then typed?

No, I would never! Well, at least, I think so.










(Got that link via a newsletter two hours ago.)

Why are we even debating this?

It was staged I knew that right after it happened. Of course there were Iraqi people trying to "tear" it down but it was clearly manifested to appeal to the American people as a symbol of "Liberation".

Much of what comes out of the administration is propaganda. You must ALWAYS look further then what is being said and ALWAYS look at the entire picture.

One need not seek to diminish to do so. In one's desire to criticize the American administration or military, one's diminshment of the Iraqis might be inadvertent, but it would still reflect, at least, an ease with underestimating them.



Anyone who watched the event saw its size, and irrespective of their opinions concerning the War, were likely struck by the relatively small number of Iraqis in the square who were either participating in or witnessing the incident. After a few minutes of consideration, though, the reasons should have become clear:

1) A war was still going on. As it turns out, the major fighting was over, but how was the average Iraqi to know this? Perhaps the folks who came to the square were convinced by Psy-Op broadcasts that it was safe to do so. So what? Did they promise them money or favors if they came out and toppled the statue?

2) The last time the Americans came to Iraq and encouraged the Iraqis to rise up and overthrow Saddam, those Iraqis who responded, ended up betrayed and at the tender mercies of Saddam. What is the most unbelievable aspect of these claims is that any Iraqi would trust our Psy-Ops broadcasts. Perhaps they were young or had poor memories. What has always been somewhat disturbing to me is the relative lack of protest, from all quarters, over the first Bush Administration's perfidy as respects the non-Kurdish insurgents after Gulf War I.

The event was not big, and similar events weren't popping up all over Iraq. So if you are convinced that Psy-Ops made them seem bigger and more widespread than they were, you were either watching a very different broadcast than I, or you believe their efforts were rather pathetic.

What was big was the media coverage of the event, and, in my opinion, the courage and excitement of those Iraqis who were involved.



Another spokesperson for all posters, I see.

This is immaterial, in any case, as I have no reason to contend that those who argue that the event was staged have consciously intended to diminish the actions and motives of the Iraqis. However, it is impossible to argue that the event was staged by the US Military without diminishing the involvement of the Iraqis who were involved. You may choose not to appreciate the logic of this statement because you would like to have it both ways, but it doesn't change the logic.