Army Stage managed Fall Hussein Statue

Why not?

Craven

You have an unfortunate tendency to take all postings personally.

As to your comments, no I do not know that the Iraqis who first attempted to bring the statute down were not influenced to do so by PsyOps broadcasts.

However, evidence of same would not support the notion that it was a staged event.

A staged event would mean that PsyOps hired the actors to play the roles in their little drama.

Iraqis sitting in their homes and motivated to attack the statue by PsyOps broadcasts doesn't constitute a staged event.

Finn said:

" However it you insist on a scorched earth approach to each and every aspect of the operation, intent upon casting it as the work of Satan, you're, at best, full of BS. "

Actually, if you are attributing that belief to Craven, Finn - that is quite a denial of his words - however, that is not my discussion to have.

As I have already expressed, I was not even considering Craven's postings when I added to the thread.

I claim to no special knowledge of this event.

I do not know if any Iraqis were involved with the statue before the American military became involved or not.

What I DO think is that the incident, however it began, was cleverly managed to make it look a great deal more significant - in terms of numbers of Iraqis involved, and their enthusiasm - than it actually was.

And you know this how?

I have not done the kind of thinking through that Craven, for instance, has obviously done re "psy-ops" and its possible positive effects (Craven mentions specifically the advantage of "less bloody wars".)

My tendency when I see such things stage-managed is just to think "propaganda" and not to like it - just as I do when I see large enthusiastic crowds in North Korea idolizing their leader, for instance.

I still think there is clear evidence that the US military cleverly used this incident to suggest there was more joy in Baghdad than there was - to support the case for war.

And that clear evidence is?

It certainly was a nice moment. Hussein was a truly awful dictator. Some folk had some real fun. But the incident was given a lot more generalized significance than it had. I think this is clear when you look at the wide shots

I watched a fair bit of it Bill - and these are the impressions I gained at the time, as well as on reading the information thta has been given here.

I thought the crowd was pretty small - surprisingly so. I remember, in the wide shots, noticing lots of passers-by stop for a minute, and move on. I couldn't believe the stupidity when I saw the US flag and almost prayed that somebody would get rid of it - even though I thought it was an honest flag to have there.

Bill and Finn - you will doubtless say that what I saw coloured by my opposition to the war.

Can you also accept that your views of what happened, and its deep emotive significance, is equally coloured by yours?

Sorry, no.

I too noticed that the crowd was relatively small. So how to explain this?

On the one hand is the explanation that no one in Iraq wanted to tear down the statue, and so the American Military was forced to recruit a small group (who, by the way, would be so irresponsible as to bring their children).

On the other is the explanation that the majority of Iraqis were scared sh*tless of Saddam (and rightly so) and weren't convinced that the American entry into Bahgdad signified his ultimate demise or that the Americans would have staying power( and rightly so), and so only a relatively small and courageous (or stupid) band of Iraqis came out to take down their oppressor's symbol. (Under this explanation the Iraqis who brought their children did so that they might bear witness to a historic event. Hard to attribute such motivation to Iraqis?)

I rarely argue that stupid moves are not part of a design, but assuming PsyOps was so instrumental in staging the entire affair, it's difficult to imagine that they could produce the Iraqis, but not GIs with the awareness to us an Iraqi flag and not an American one.

"I don't mean to presume Bill, but I think we share the same anger: If you believe the invasion of Iraq was unjustified or unwise, fine. Reasonable people can disagree. However it you insist on a scorched earth approach to each and every aspect of the operation, intent upon casting it as the work of Satan, you're, at best, full of BS.

That PsyOps may have targeted this statue is certainly likely, but immaterial.

As we approached the street leading into the Al-Firdos Square, we could tell that there was a very large crowd of civilians starting to form up. It looked like the infantry unit up there could use some support, so we moved our [tactical PSYOP team] TPT vehicle forward and started to run around seeing what they needed us to do to facilitate their mission…. There was a large media circus at this location (I guess the Palestine Hotel was a media center at the time), almost as many reporters as there were Iraqis, as the hotel wsa right adjacent to the Al-Firdos Square.

The Marine Corps colonel in the area saw the Saddam statue as a target of opportunity and decided that the statue must come down. Since we were right there, we chimed in with some loudspeaker support to let the Iraqis know what it was we were attempting to do

I rarely argue that stupid moves are not part of a design, but assuming PsyOps was so instrumental in staging the entire affair, it's difficult to imagine that they could produce the Iraqis, but not GIs with the awareness to us an Iraqi flag and not an American one.

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Craven

You have an unfortunate tendency to take all postings personally.

I assure you Finn, that I did not take your postings personally. I did however make sure to delienate your generalized arguments from what I was about to address.

I see no point in pursuing this line.

Quote:

As to your comments, no I do not know that the Iraqis who first attempted to bring the statute down were not influenced to do so by PsyOps broadcasts.

Same here, I do not know.

Neither do I know whether an Iraqi attempt preceeded this broadcast.

Bill doesn't know either, but he's convinced and can't believe I don't believe him.

Nobody here has brought any evidence to settle this sequence and if anyone comes across something please bring it to the table.

Quote:

However, evidence of same would not support the notion that it was a staged event.

Depends on what you mean by staged.

It was, in fact, used as a stage for PSYOPs like I think it should have.

This doesn't mean the Iraqi expression was staged.

Methinks that this is a very loaded word by the estimation of some here.

It appears we are, roughly, on the same page. My position is that the Iraqi expression was not staged.

What makes you think I don't know Iraqis are people, Finn?

The positions you take, of course.

As to the question at hand, your spin is the same as mine: loaded with guesswork.

Not quite. There is ridiculously prejudiced guesswork, and then there is guess work.

I appreciate you chiming in Finn. You confused me a little with this.

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

"I don't mean to presume Bill, but I think we share the same anger: If you believe the invasion of Iraq was unjustified or unwise, fine. Reasonable people can disagree. However it you insist on a scorched earth approach to each and every aspect of the operation, intent upon casting it as the work of Satan, you're, at best, full of BS.

If you don't already know, I support the war effort openly mainly for the sake of the Iraqi people… or more accurately for the sake of people.

My use of the pronoun "you" was unforunate. I should have used "one."
I did not mean to suggest that "you" was OCCOM BILL

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

That PsyOps may have targeted this statue is certainly likely, but immaterial.

Oh they definitely targeted it, but not first. The crowd was already there. They said so themselves.

Quote:

As we approached the street leading into the Al-Firdos Square, we could tell that there was a very large crowd of civilians starting to form up. It looked like the infantry unit up there could use some support, so we moved our [tactical PSYOP team] TPT vehicle forward and started to run around seeing what they needed us to do to facilitate their mission…. There was a large media circus at this location (I guess the Palestine Hotel was a media center at the time), almost as many reporters as there were Iraqis, as the hotel wsa right adjacent to the Al-Firdos Square.

Nor did they give the order, they merely parroted it.

Quote:

The Marine Corps colonel in the area saw the Saddam statue as a target of opportunity and decided that the statue must come down. Since we were right there, we chimed in with some loudspeaker support to let the Iraqis know what it was we were attempting to do

Have I lost my mind or does "Since we were right there, we chimed in" imply that if they were not right there, they wouldn't have chimed in, let alone been managing the program from the get go?

I thought the crowd was pretty small - surprisingly so. I remember, in the wide shots, noticing lots of passers-by stop for a minute, and move on. I couldn't believe the stupidity when I saw the US flag and almost prayed that somebody would get rid of it - even though I thought it was an honest flag to have there.

Bill and Finn - you will doubtless say that what I saw coloured by my opposition to the war.

Can you also accept that your views of what happened, and its deep emotive significance, is equally coloured by yours?

I make few statements at all and you call them ridiculously predjudiced, even accuse me of not knowing Iraqis are people. I think you and I are finished, Finn.

I see no point in pursuing this line.

It appears we are, roughly, on the same page. My position is that the Iraqi expression was not staged.

When the US armour arrived at Firdous Square on April 9, Ali Fares and Khaled Hamid gravitated towards the commotion. "I brought the ladder," says Fares. "We asked the Americans to bring us this rope with a noose. I climbed the ladder myself. To begin with, I was scared, but when I climbed the ladder, the Iraqis started clapping, even the American soldiers. I heard them saying nice things about me. I couldn't reach Saddam's head, but by that time there was no fear. I was sure we'd got rid of him."
In the end, he says, he managed to sling the noose around the dictator's neck. "I felt so strong then. I wasn't scared of him any more. My job was finished and, as the leader of our country, so was Saddam."

Hamid says: "We weren't able to catch Saddam himself, so the statue had to stand in. I was happy. I was proud. I know that even President Bush was watching us." But the pride was tinged with revulsion. "To be honest, I was upset about the Americans coming. Nobody accepted the occupation. But we were ready to be allied with the Jews, with Satan, just to get rid of Saddam."

The stars and stripes was already being plucked from Saddam's head when Kuhlman had his moment of inspiration. During his travels up to Baghdad, he had somehow come to possess an Iraqi flag - he is reluctant to reveal exactly where. "I had seen out of the corner of my eye they were already starting to take it down," he says, "but I thought: 'I've got something that should do the crowd OK.' This was going to make a much better memory."

He handed the flag through the crowd. Although Kuhlman didn't realise it at the time, the tricolour was an old version of the flag, without the line of Arabic script across the centre stripe, reading God is Great. The addition had been ordered by Saddam after the first Gulf war, a time when he regularly made shows of piety to try to give some legitimacy to his regime. For the Iraqis in the square, the return of the old flag was redolent with feeling. Saddam's craven exploitation of nation and faith was being undone.

On April 9 2003, as Saddam's regime disintegrated in Baghdad, friends pleaded with Kadhem Sharif "al-Yabani" Hussen to use his famous strength to help them break open safety deposit boxes in nearby banks. He refused, he explains, because there was something else he wanted to do. Stripped to a black vest, taut over his enormous muscles, he took a 10kg (22lb) sledgehammer and drove the few hundred metres to Firdous Square, where the now infamous statue of Saddam Hussein stood.

Wielding the hammer with ease, he swung it at the tiled plinth supporting the dictator. The tiles shattered like biscuits. The rage of years flowed through al-Yabani's arms. It was the first blow against the statue - even before the US tanks entered the square, he says.

"Sometimes I wake up suddenly in the night and I can't believe Saddam's gone, because I'm always dreaming about him," he says. "Saddam sent me to jail. He killed 11 of my relatives. I couldn't control myself ... At that moment, I felt Saddam himself was there. With every blow of my hammer, I wanted him to be there. But if he had been there, I wouldn't have used the hammer. My hands would have been enough."