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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 02:06 am
ican711nm wrote:


Nontheless, I felt the need to apologize. I stupidly believed the New York Times, The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times, CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC on this.


Again, because obviously my English isn't good enough that you understand it:
- the New York Times, The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times, CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC say/have said that the USA is hated by the tyrannical leader of Germany and/or Germany?

- the New York Times, The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times, CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC say/have said that the German tyrannical leader/Germany is genuinely fearful of their rapidly growing kill-the-infidels population?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 06:46 am
McTag...why don't you just come out and say what you mean and stop mincing words? Laughing

Quote:
Kara wrote:
I just want you to realise that most of the rest of the world sees America as a reckless warmongering state, ill-led and out of control. Scornful of international laws and treaties, selfish, wasteful and stupid. Pursuing a current course that cannot result in the world becoming a better place.


ican, I did not write that. Cyclops did. I will take credit for the other comments you attributed to me.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 07:40 am
Er...it was me, originally. But others may use it, of course. Smile
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 11:34 am
Walter, those sources alleged that the USA is hated by most of the German people.

Those same sources alleged that most Germans are fearful of a rapidly growing Muslim population loyal to al Qaeda.

Neither of these allegations referred specifically to the German government or to any member of the German government.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 11:47 am
CORRECTION

Kara quoted and did not write what she alleges:
Cyclops wrote:
I just want you to realise that most of the rest of the world sees America as a reckless warmongering state, ill-led and out of control. Scornful of international laws and treaties, selfish, wasteful and stupid. Pursuing a current course that cannot result in the world becoming a better place.


But I have just learned McTag alleges:

McTag wrote:
I just want you to realise that most of the rest of the world sees America as a reckless warmongering state, ill-led and out of control. Scornful of international laws and treaties, selfish, wasteful and stupid. Pursuing a current course that cannot result in the world becoming a better place.


Any one else? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 11:53 am
ican711nm wrote:
Walter, those sources alleged that the USA is hated by most of the German people.

Those same sources alleged that most Germans are fearful of a rapidly growing Muslim population loyal to al Qaeda.


Well, so could you give them?

I would be really delighted to read them, because they are opposite to those I am able to read here (obvioulsy, not only the European polls are different, and we get different news here as well, but your sources have a better oversight about German people than someone like me).

Thanks in advance.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 12:08 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Walter, those sources alleged that the USA is hated by most of the German people.

Those same sources alleged that most Germans are fearful of a rapidly growing Muslim population loyal to al Qaeda.


Well, so could you give them?


No, Sorry Walter. These allegations were originally made about three to six weeks ago and I neglected to save them. Ask McTag. I infer from what he alleges is his post that he saved them. :wink:

McTag wrote:
I just want you to realise that most of the rest of the world sees America as a reckless warmongering state, ill-led and out of control. Scornful of international laws and treaties, selfish, wasteful and stupid. Pursuing a current course that cannot result in the world becoming a better place.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
( ... your sources have a better oversight about German people than someone like me).
Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 12:24 pm
Quote:
Cyclops wrote:
I just want you to realise that most of the rest of the world sees America as a reckless warmongering state, ill-led and out of control. Scornful of international laws and treaties, selfish, wasteful and stupid. Pursuing a current course that cannot result in the world becoming a better place.


Okay, I didn't write this.

Not that I disagree too much with it. But just to clear things up.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 12:43 pm
ican711nm

No I do have some serious doubts abot my -admittingly- small knowledge of English:

I thought, you wrote about "that the USA is hated by most of the German people" and weren't referring to the fact that most Germans join in the majoriyt of Europeans and see the USA' as a reckless warmongering state's government.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 02:41 pm
While we're doing corrections- Ican, there's too much of your stuff needs correction, and I'm not sure you would benefit from improved information anyway, but let me just mention one thing: you wrote the phrase

"...are fearful of a rapidly growing muslim population loyal to Al Quaida...."

This is dangerous nonsense. Most muslims in Germany, and in this country too, are law-abiding and have no connection to any terrorist group. It is racist hatemongering to stigmatise them in this way.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 02:54 pm
Also, certain people are very free with accusations of "hating America" levelled at anyone who disapproves of the actions of the current administration.
This is patent nonsense too.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 05:21 am
Quote:


Bush's Superficial Wounds in the Vietnam Era

The debate that a handful of Texas multi-millionnaires close to the Bush family have cleverly manufactured over John Kerry's war record is absurd in every way. The charges that they have put some vets up to making against Kerry are false and can be demonstrated by the historical record to be false. Most of those making the charges have even flip-flopped, contradicting themselves. Or they weren't eyewitnesses and are just lying.

But to address the substance of this Big Lie is to risk falling into its logic. The true absurdity of the entire situation is easily appreciated when we consider that George W. Bush never showed any bravery at all at any point in his life. He has never lived in a war zone. If some of John Kerry's wounds were superficial, Bush received no wounds. (And, a piece of shrapnel in the forearm that caused only a minor wound would have killed had it hit an eye and gone into the brain; the shrapnel being in your body demonstrates you were in mortal danger and didn't absent yourself from it. That is the logic of the medal). Kerry saved a man's life while under fire. Bush did no such thing.

What was Bush doing with his youth? He was drinking. He was drinking like a fish, every night, into the wee hours. For decades. He gave no service to anyone, risked nothing, and did not even slack off efficiently. At what point he became addicted to cocaine, in addition to demon rum, is unclear.

The history of alcoholism and cocaine use is a key issue because it not only speaks to Bush's character as an addictive personality, but tells us something about his erratic and alarming actions as president. His explosive temper probably provoked the disastrous siege of Fallujah last spring, killing 600 Iraqis, most of them women and children, in revenge for the deaths of 4 civilian mercenaries, one of them a South African. (Newsweek reported that Bush commanded his cabinet, "Let heads roll!") That temper is only one problem. Bush has a sadistic streak. He clearly enjoyed, as governor, watching executions. His delight in killing people became a campaign issue in 2000 when he seemed, in one debate, to enjoy the prospect of executing wrong-doers a little too much. He has clearly gone on enjoying killing people on a large scale in Iraq. Cocaine use permanently affects the ability of the person to feel deep emotions like empathy. Two decades of pickling his nervous system in various highly toxic substances have left Bush damaged goods. That he managed to get on the wagon (though with that pretzel incident, you wonder how firmly) is laudable. But he suffers the severe effects of the aftermath, and we are all suffering along with him now, since he is the most powerful man in the world.

We all know by now that Bush did not even do his full service with the Texas Air National Guard, absenting himself to work on the Alabama senate campaign of Winton "Red" Blount. Whether he was actually AWOL during this stint is unclear. But it is clear that not only did Bush slack off on his National Guard service, but he also slacked off from his campaign work.

This little-noted interview with Blount's nephew Murph Archibald, which appeared on National Public Radio's "All Things Considered on March 30, 2004, gives a devastating insight into what it was like to have to suffer through Bush in that period.


"All Things Considered (8:00 PM ET) - NPR

March 30, 2004 Tuesday

This campaign season, there have been questions about whether George W. Bush fulfilled his obligations to the National Guard as a young lieutenant in the early 1970s. For weeks, reporters scoured Alabama in search of pilots or anyone who might have remembered seeing Mr. Bush at the time he was serving in the National Guard there. There is one place in Alabama where Mr. Bush was present nearly every day: the headquarters in Montgomery of US Senate candidate Winton "Red" Blount. President Bush has always said that working for Blount was the reason he transferred to the Alabama Air National Guard. NPR's Wade Goodwyn has this report about Mr. Bush's time on that campaign.

WADE GOODWYN reporting:

In 1972, Baba Groom was a smart, funny young woman smack-dab in the middle of an exciting US Senate campaign. Groom was Republican Red Blount's scheduler, and in that job, she was the hub in the campaign wheel. Ask her about the handsome young man from Texas, and she remembers him 32 years later like it was yesterday.

Ms. BABA GROOM (Former Campaign Worker): He would wear khaki trousers and some old jacket. He was always ready to go out on the road. On the phone, you could hear his accent. It was a Texas accent. But he just melded with everybody.

GOODWYN: The candidate Mr. Bush was working for, Red Blount, had gotten rich in Alabama in the construction business. Prominent Southern Republicans were something of a rare breed in those days. Blount's support of the party led him to be appointed Richard Nixon's postmaster general. In Washington, Blount became friends and tennis partners with Mr. Bush's father, then Congressman Bush. That was how 26-year-old Lieutenant Bush came to Montgomery, at his father's urging . . . It was Mr. Bush's job to organize the Republican county chairpersons in the 67 Alabama counties. Back in 1972 in the Deep South, many rural counties didn't have much in the way of official Republican Party apparatus. But throughout Alabama, there were Republicans and Democrats who wanted to help Red Blount. It was the young Texan's job to find out what each county leader needed in the way of campaign supplies and get those supplies to them. Groom says this job helped Mr. Bush understand how even in a statewide Senate campaign, politics are local.

. . . Murph Archibald is Red Blount's nephew by marriage, and in 1972, he was coming off a 15-month tour in Vietnam in the infantry. Archibald says that in a campaign full of dedicated workers, Mr. Bush was not one of them.

Mr. MURPH ARCHIBALD (Nephew of Red Blount): Well, I was coming in early in the morning and leaving in mid-evenings. Ordinarily, George would come in around noon; he would ordinarily leave around 5:30 or 6:00 in the evening.

GOODWYN: Archibald says that two months before the election, in September of '72, Red Blount's campaign manager came to him and asked that he quietly take over Mr. Bush's job because the campaign materials were not getting out to the counties.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: George certainly didn't seem to have any concerns about my taking over this work with the campaign workers there. My overall impression was that he didn't seem as interested in the campaign as the other people who were working at the state headquarters.

GOODWYN: Murph Archibald says that at first, he didn't know that Mr. Bush was serving in the Air National Guard. After he found out from somebody else, Archibald attempted to talk to Mr. Bush about it. The president was a lieutenant and Archibald had been a lieutenant, too; he figured they had something to talk about.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: George didn't have any interest at all in talking about the military. In fact, when I broached the subject with him, he simply changed the subject. He wasn't unpleasant about it, but he just changed the subject and wouldn't talk about it.

GOODWYN: Far from Texas and Washington, DC, Mr. Bush enjoyed his freedom. He dated a beautiful young woman working on the campaign. He went out in the evenings and had a good time. In fact, he left the house he rented in such disrepair--with damage to the walls and a chandelier destroyed--that the Montgomery family who owned it still grumble about the unpaid repair bill. Archibald says Mr. Bush would come into the office and, in a friendly way, offer up stories about the drinking he'd done the night before, kind of as a conversation starter.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: People have different ways of starting the days in any office. They're going to talk about their kids, they're going to talk about football, they're going to talk about the weather. And this was simply his opening gambit; he would start talking about that he had been out late the night before drinking.

GOODWYN: Archibald says the frequency with which Mr. Bush discussed the subject was off-putting to him.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: I mean, at that time, I was 28; George would have been 25 or 26. And I thought it was really unusual that someone in their mid-20s would initiate conversations, particularly in the context of something as serious as a US senatorial campaign, by talking about their drinking the night before. I thought it unusual and, frankly, inappropriate.

GOODWYN: According to Archibald, Mr. Bush would also sometimes tell stories about his days at Yale in New Haven, and how whenever he got pulled over for erratic driving, he was let go after the officers discovered he was the grandson of a Connecticut US senator. Archibald, a middle-class Alabama boy--who, by the way, is now a registered Democrat--didn't like that story.

Mr. ARCHIBALD: He told us whenever he was stopped, as soon as the law enforcement found out that he was the grandson of Prescott Bush, they would let him go. And he would always laugh about that. "



Goodwyn dutifully notes that Baba Groom didn't remember George telling drunk stories. But that means nothing, since they weren't the sort of things guys like Bush told the "girls". He was trying to buddy with Archibald and impress him.

Again, decades of this sort of behavior do not leave a person untouched. Our world is in crisis and our Republic is in danger. It should not be left in the hands of a man who spent his life like this.

posted by Juan @ 8/23/2004 06:40:13 AM


Source
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 06:23 am
I've heard two interesting pieces about George Bush recently. One was an interview with John Dean who has a new book out. (This may have been on C-Span.) Dean wrote in his book that he deconstructed a speech Bush made in late 2003 when he was trying to rally support for the war. Dean somehow got hold of the intel and reports that Bush used in fashioning his talk. It was remarkable to read the speech side by side with the intel, according to Dean. When the report said "maybe," that qualifier was left out of the speech. If there was doubt or qualification of any kind in the intel, it disappeared in the speech.

Dean remarked that his book is simply a relating of facts and that he has no partisan slant. Well, yeah. That would be remarkable if it was true. But it was an interesting exercise.

The other story about Bush was related by a researcher who went back and found videos of Bush's earliest speeches as governor and in his first months of presidency. The researcher was struck by how differently Bush spoke and appeared in those early speeches. He spoke rapidly and clearly, and he used three syllable words without stumbling. He was quick on his feet. He appeared highly intelligent and well informed. The reporter then worked his way up to the present, listening to more recent speeches. It was, he said, as if a different person were speaking. (I heard this on NPR and missed the name of the researcher.)

The researcher had no judgment or comment about what could have caused such deterioration, but he caused me to think about it. It is possible that the people who surrounded him in his early presidential years influenced him to change his style. One sees how Bush, over the years, has developed an artificial pause between statements, as if to add gravemen. It cuts down the flow of his speeches and makes him look less thoughtful, rather than more so, to my mind.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 07:26 am
McTag wrote:

"...are fearful of a rapidly growing muslim population loyal to Al Quaida...."

This is dangerous nonsense. Most muslims in Germany, and in this country too, are law-abiding and have no connection to any terrorist group. It is racist hatemongering to stigmatise them in this way.


There you go again with the hyperbole.

I agree that:
Quote:
Most muslims in Germany, and in this country too, are law-abiding and have no connection to any terrorist group.


I agree that it is racist hatemongering to stigmatise them ALL for what a small percentage are thinking and doing. I did not do that. You continue to not grasp the fact it takes only a small number of terrorist maniacs to murder or maim thousands. Therefore it is understandable that a small but rapidly growing number of such maniacs in one's midst would be frightening. According to the media I cited here, and subsequently rejected here, the German people are fearful that that the number of those al Qaeda loyalists is rapidly growing in their midst.

I apologized for believing that damnable media I paraphrased. I know now that I should not have believed them, and I already wrote so.

You continue to stigmatize me and repeatedly presume my motives. You are not competent to infer anyone's motives but your own (if those), much less mine.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 07:39 am
BUSH IS NOT THE PROBLEM!

THOSE WHO BELIEVE BUSH IS THE PROBLEM ARE A PROBLEM!

BUT THE AL QAEDA ARE THE BIG PROBLEM!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 10:42 am
ICANN!

WHAT MADE AL QAEDA INTO A BIG PROBLEM?

GUYS LIKE BUSH!

There ya go. The circle has come fully around.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 11:19 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ICANN!

WHAT MADE AL QAEDA INTO A BIG PROBLEM?

GUYS LIKE BUSH!

There ya go. The circle has come fully around.

Cycloptichorn


Exclamation

HUH?! How do you figure that one?!
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 12:40 pm
STOP YELLING!
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Aug, 2004 02:29 pm
Ican wrote
Quote:
BUSH IS NOT THE PROBLEM!

THOSE WHO BELIEVE BUSH IS THE PROBLEM ARE A PROBLEM!

BUT THE AL QAEDA ARE THE BIG PROBLEM!



You seem to be learning from Bush. That sounds like one of his unfathomable excretions.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Aug, 2004 07:24 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
...
WHAT MADE AL QAEDA INTO A BIG PROBLEM?

GUYS LIKE BUSH!


AND GUYS LIKE CLINTON!

Lest you forget, al Qaeda made war on Americans from the beginning of Clinton's Administration, 1993-2001. Al Qaeda declared war on Americans in Osama's 1996 and 1998 Fatwas, not merely Osama's 2004 FATWA. Al Qaeda proceeded to make war on Americans throughout Clinton's 8 years, not just during Bush's first 8 months (January to September, 2001).

Prior Presidents, both Democrats and Republicans, contributed to the problem as well.
0 Replies
 
 

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