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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 05:53 am
Quote:
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Posted on Tue, Apr. 12, 2005
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Sharon dismisses Bush warning

GAVIN RABINOWITZ

Associated Press

WASHINGTON - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon brushed off a warning from President Bush not to allow further West Bank settlement growth, indicating Israel would continue to solidify its hold on areas it considers of strategic importance.

Sharon, speaking to reporters before flying to Washington for talks Tuesday with U.S. lawmakers and Jewish leaders, said the dispute was decades-old and did not mar the meeting between the two leaders, which he called a great success.

Sharon, who won renewed support for his plan to remove Jewish settlements from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank at Monday's joint news conference on Bush's ranch in Texas, also dampened the president's expectations that the tempo of peace talks would pick up after the withdrawal.

At the ranch, Bush told Sharon that any further building on the settlements would be in violation of the internationally backed "road map" peace plan, which both the Israelis and the Palestinians have formally accepted, but which has been long dormant with both sides failing to carry out their initial obligations.

"I've been very clear. Israel has an obligation under the road map. That's no expansion of settlements," Bush said.

But later, Sharon said that while U.S. opposition to the settlements dated back to when Israel first captured the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the 1967 Middle East war, Israel has nevertheless continued to build communities to keep a hold on the land.

"It was not to antagonize the U.S., but to keep areas that seem strategic to Israel," Sharon told reporters.

The latest dispute stems from differing interpretations of a statement made by Bush last year, and reaffirmed Monday, where he recognized Israel's need to keep large settlement blocs in the West Bank. Bush cited "new realities on the ground."

Israel believes this allows for expansion of exiting settlements, while the U.S. says this would endanger peace with the Palestinians.

The issue reappeared last month when Israel announced plans to add 3,650 homes to the West Bank's largest settlement, Maaleh Adumim. The plan would cut off Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank. The United States objected.

Sharon said Israel will keep large settlement blocs like Maaleh Adumim. "The blocs will be part of Israel, with everything that that entails," Sharon said, indicating the construction that will link Maaleh Adumim to Jerusalem will continue.

At the summit Bush expressed optimism that Sharon's plan to withdraw from all 21 Gaza settlements and four others in the West Bank - which he praised as courageous - would jump start the tenuous peace process.

If Israel's withdrawal from Gaza comes off successfully, then, "I think we'll have a different frame of mind" more conducive to pursuing peace, Bush said. "To me, that's where the attention of the world ought to be, on Gaza."

But there will be no progress after the Gaza pullout unless "the Palestinians completely fulfill their obligations of stopping terror attacks, waging a war against terror, destroying the terror infrastructure and reforming their security services," Sharon said.

"I have no intent, in no way, of progressing with the road map ... until they fulfill all their obligations," he said.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who is set to meet Bush next month, has failed to confront militant groups, preferring to try and co-opt them through negotiations.

On Monday the Palestinians launched a jobs-for-guns program to grant gunmen government jobs in exchange for giving up violence.

Bush had praise for the Palestinian leadership, but also made clear more must be done. "We want to continue to work with them on consolidating security forces," he said.

At a lunch meeting following the news conference Bush and Sharon turned to other subjects, including European diplomatic efforts to persuade Iran to abandon its nuclear ambitions, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

Was it something George said?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 06:17 am
Casualties

Here
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 10:50 am
gel, that about Israel is confusing. They seem to be giving with one hand and taking with another. Bush in all of this is confusing as well as he seems to be out of character with the way he is in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 11:06 am
From BBC:

Rumsfeld warning to Iraq leaders

Mr Rumsfeld praised progress in the formation of a new leadership
The US defence secretary has warned against political purges when a new Iraqi government takes power.
On a surprise visit to Iraq, Donald Rumsfeld said Baghdad must not allow goals of achieving democracy and defeating the insurgency to be blocked.

The US is worried that officers from the security forces who served under Saddam Hussein may be dismissed, the BBC's Baghdad correspondent says.

Mr Rumsfeld's trip follows the election of a new president and prime minister.

It's important that the new government be attentive to the competence of the people in the ministries and that they avoid unnecessary turbulence

Donald Rumsfeld

The visit comes as the UN special envoy to Iraq, Ashraf Qazi, called for greater attention to be paid to human rights in Iraq.

He told the UN Security Council that more attention needed to be paid to due process for detainees.

And, in developments on the ground:


At least five Iraqis are killed and three others injured in a car bomb attack on a US convoy in the northern city of Mosul, just ahead of Mr Rumsfeld's visit to the city

Insurgents in western Baghdad ambush a convoy carrying a senior interior ministry official, killing a bodyguard and injuring three others, ministry officials say

Dozens of insurgents are rounded up in a major raid by US and Iraqi forces in central and southern Baghdad on Monday morning.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 11:20 am
Ican,

Several times you have stated that the fact that Bush chose the wrong reason to promote the war in Iraq doesn't change the facts about said war in Iraq. While this is true, I think the following sums up pretty well why we can't allow such incompetence to excuse such morally bankrupt decisions:

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/trall/2005/trall050409.gif

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 11:45 am
Quote:
Old media on Iraq: Good news not newsworthy
David Limbaugh (archive)

April 12, 2005

When it comes to reporting on the Iraq War, the Old Media might as well be an appendage of the anti-war wing of the Democratic Party. It is astonishing how little coverage we've seen of the positive trend there over the last few months.

I realize many just chalk up the media's emphasis on bad news as intrinsic to journalism: the attitude that if nothing is going wrong, it's not really newsworthy. But that just doesn't wash.

How could anyone seriously contend that a reduction in the anarchy isn't newsworthy? What could be more important than signs indicating we might have turned the corner on the "insurgency"?

While we heard a daily drumbeat of despair and an ongoing tabulation of American dead when things were looking bleaker -- a look, I might add, that was meticulously cultivated by the Old Media -- we hear nothing but a thundering silence today.

How can we but conclude that the media simply don't want to promote the good news out of Iraq? But why? Well, obviously, they suppress good news because it vindicates their nemesis, President Bush, and incriminates them and their liberal comrades.

Do you think that's unfair? Would you prefer I conclude instead that they downplay positive developments because they abhor the march of democracy in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East? I'm straining for an alternative explanation for their one-sided coverage.

We heard barely a whisper from these naysayers when we witnessed the popular uprising in Lebanon against Syrian occupation. Rather, they chose to highlight counter-protests by Hezbollah-sympathizers -- as if the media were rooting against democracy and independence.

They don't even pretend to be balanced. Remember the early anti-administration reporting that accompanied the beginning of the ground war? There were predictions of quagmire, reports we were being greeted as occupiers and not liberators, exaggerated stories of museum lootings, complaints about our supply lines not keeping pace with our advancing troops and the like.

Don't forget the media hype over alleged coalition negligence leading to missing explosives in Al Qaqaa, nor the media's preposterous, relentless quest to pin the Abu Ghraib abuses directly on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

The most egregious example of bias involved their conspiratorial joinder with Democrats to smear President Bush as a liar concerning his claims of WMD in Iraq. When we failed to find large WMD stockpiles after deposing Saddam Hussein, they helped Democrats portray a global failure of intelligence (assuming the weapons weren't there and moved before our invasion), as premeditated deception by President Bush. They've all repeated the lie so much now that it has become part of the "conventional wisdom."

Moving into the present, why aren't we hearing much today about how we have the terrorists on the run? The Washington Times -- decidedly not part of the Old Media -- reported that the U.S. Marines almost caught "Abu Musab Zarqawi, the most-wanted terrorist in Iraq," and he is still being pursued. "He's going from brush pile to brush pile just like a wet rat," said Lt. Gen John F. Sattler.

"Big deal," you say. "It's only newsworthy if they capture him." Wrong. It's newsworthy anyway, but especially if his near capture is more than blind luck. Indeed, it appears that any blind luck involved accrued not to coalition troops, but Zarqawi, who managed to escape only because of poor visibility brought on by bad weather.

Far from serendipitous, our tightening of the noose around Zarqawi was a natural consequence of our earlier military successes. Gen. Sattler told the Times that the "coalition has forced Zarqawi to work 'independently' by killing or capturing his first- and second-string lieutenants." A media at least marginally receptive to good news out of Iraq would be all over this story.

While we don't want to prematurely "count our chickens," it would seem that a media interested in reporting, rather than coloring the news would celebrate this story.

Similarly, how about the relative decline in American fatalities? How about reports that Iraqi security forces are maturing and strengthening each day? How about recent hints that if current trends continue we could begin withdrawing substantial numbers of troops toward the end of the year?

Perhaps Gen. Sattler's declaration in November that our victory in Fallujah had "broken the back of the insurgency" was not an overstatement. Only time will tell. But in the meantime, I suppose we'll not hear much from the Old Media until the next coalition setback.

In case you're wondering, I'm not saying the Old Media don't want good things to happen in Iraq -- but just not on President Bush's watch.

Now that's newsworthy.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 12:37 pm
Here's some "old media" here reporting a positive, hopeful story:

Iraq: is the tide turning?
12 April 2005
Two years after American troops pulled down the statue of Saddam Hussein in central Baghdad and a lethal insurgency against US occupation of Iraq began, the nightmare that has brought death to countless civilians may be coming to an end.
Attacks on US forces are down from 140 a day to 30 a day. Casualty figures are down. So are assassination attempts. US commanders believe they can reduce forces by up to 40,000. An upbeat General Richard Myers, the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, said this week: "We're on track."
Yesterday, an American civilian contractor was kidnapped in Baghdad. The dying is not over but, in Baghdad and Washington, the feeling is growing that the worst might just be over.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=628597
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 01:53 pm
McTag, Here's a prediction; once 40,000 US troops leaves Iraq, the insurgency will again increase, and we'll see more US soldiers and Iraqi civilians killed.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 02:07 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
McTag, Here's a prediction; once 40,000 US troops leaves Iraq, the insurgency will again increase, and we'll see more US soldiers and Iraqi civilians killed.


Do you think US soldiers should stay or go, c.i.?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 02:09 pm
Not my problem to solve.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 02:13 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
McTag, Here's a prediction; once 40,000 US troops leaves Iraq, the insurgency will again increase, and we'll see more US soldiers and Iraqi civilians killed.


Do you think US soldiers should stay or go, c.i.?


Not my problem.


Oh, that's right. "Critics don't do solutions" -- right? You just want to complain that there are troops over there, then prepare yourself for the complaining you're going to do when there aren't troops over there.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 02:16 pm
Tico, It's only my opinion. If you can't handle it, don't read it. ;( I also criticize our economy; doesn't mean I can cure its problems.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 02:19 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Tico, It's only my opinion. If you can't handle it, don't read it. ;( I also criticize our economy; doesn't mean I can cure its problems.


I do appreciate that it's your opinion. I hope you can appreciate that I think you are just complaining because you like to complain, but I don't blame you for that, because I understand you are a liberal and you can't help it. It is a classic symptom.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 02:22 pm
I'm not a "liberal." You're wrong on most things about me, so quit trying. The only thing I might be considered a liberal is my position on universal health care; otherwise, I'm a moderate.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 02:25 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I'm not a "liberal." You're wrong on most things about me, so quit trying. The only thing I might be considered a liberal is my position on universal health care; otherwise, I'm a moderate.


Of course you are.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 03:12 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
I'm not a "liberal." You're wrong on most things about me, so quit trying. The only thing I might be considered a liberal is my position on universal health care; otherwise, I'm a moderate.


Of course you are.


Pejoratively speaking of course ... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 04:18 pm
Well its pretty hard to take a moderate seriously who has supported 99% of liberal positions posted on this board for the last year.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 04:35 pm
Iraqis Increase Calls for U.S. to Leave

Iraqis Increasingly Calling on American Troops to Leave Now That Election Is Over

By TRACI CARL

The Associated Press

Apr. 12, 2005 - Iraqis are increasingly calling on U.S. forces to leave their troubled nation, emboldened by a newly elected parliament and the growing presence of their blue-uniformed police forces even though the new Iraqi leaders say it's too early to talk about a U.S. pullout.

The calls gained momentum when Shiite and Sunni religious clerics called for protests to mark the two-year anniversary of Baghdad's fall, prompting four days of demonstrations across the country.

Tens of thousands of mostly Shiite protesters, largely followers of militant cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, filled central Baghdad's streets Saturday, holding the largest anti-American protest since the invasion. Demonstrations have continued, all echoing the same demand: It's time for U.S. troops to leave.

Still, some Iraqis say it's too early for the Americans to leave because Iraqi forces aren't ready for the daily attacks that have killed thousands in the past two years of the insurgency.

"If the Americans leave Iraq now, the political forces will fight each other in order to get power and the victims will be the Iraqi people," said Rashid Abass, a 61-year-old waiter.

Even the influential Association of Muslim Scholars, which has been accused of ties to insurgents, has called for a timetable for a U.S. withdrawal, not an immediate exit.

But the protests reflect a growing impatience with American troops, viewed here both as protectors and antagonizers. Insurgents fueling the conflict direct their rage at U.S. troops and Iraqis seen as cooperating with them. That, in part, has delayed any talk of a pullout, with U.S. leaders saying they will only leave when the Iraqi government asks them to go.

On Sunday, protesters shouted anti-American slogans in Duluiyah, 45 miles north of the capital. A day later, a similar demonstration was held in Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad.

On Tuesday, in the troubled city of Samarra, tribal, city and religious leaders gathered along with students in the shadow of a spiral minaret, throwing rocks at U.S. tanks and shouting for the Americans to leave.

"The Iraqis will fight until they force (the Americans) to leave and let us live in peace and security," Hassan Neama, 33, said Tuesday in Baghdad. "They are the source of all of Iraq's problems. We consider the Americans our enemy, not our savior from the Saddam Hussein regime."

Some Iraqis argue the country is ready to take care of itself after the Jan. 30 elections, the first free vote in 50 years, and last week's naming of an interim prime minister, Shiite Ibrahim al-Jaafari.

"The American troops should leave our country because there is an elected government in Iraq now. If they stay longer, things won't get any better," said Abdul Rahman Hatam, a 21-year-old cook in Baghdad. "We, as Arabs, don't accept any foreigner controlling our country."

Iraq's new leaders, however, have cautioned against a pullout, saying they need more time to train Iraqi police and soldiers whose ranks are growing each day.

The country is also still at least eight months away from electing a permanent government. New lawmakers must first write a permanent constitution by Aug. 15, and the document must be approved during a referendum in October.

In an interview with CNN's "Late Edition" on Sunday, new interim President Jalal Talabani said he didn't agree with the protests, arguing that U.S. forces were needed in Iraq until the country can rebuild its security forces something he said could take two years.

In a surprise visit to Iraq on Tuesday, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld didn't address the topic of a U.S. withdrawal. But he called on the country's new leaders to avoid delays in drafting a permanent constitution and building a strong police and army a reminder the United States doesn't plan to stay forever.

"Anything that would delay that or disrupt that as a result of turbulence or incompetence or corruption in government would be unfortunate," Rumsfeld said.

President Bush has refused to set a timetable for withdrawal even though more than a dozen countries have already pulled out of Iraq and several more are considering leaving the U.S.-led coalition.

Speaking to soldiers Tuesday at Fort Hood, Texas, Bush said U.S. troops would come home only once Iraqis are able to control their country.

"Iraqis want to be led by their own countrymen," Bush said. "We'll help them achieve that objective. And then our troops can come home with the honor they deserve."

On Tuesday, Polish Defense Minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski said his country the United States' fourth-largest coalition partner wants to leave the country in the first few weeks of 2006, after the U.N. mandate on the multinational force in Iraq expires.


source
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 05:20 pm
Quote:
Well its pretty hard to take a moderate seriously who has supported 99% of liberal positions posted on this board for the last year.


Sheesh!

That's because you are so far to the right, you think that Moderate positions ARE Liberal positions...

Ask Nimh, he'll tell ya

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2005 06:32 pm
Quote, "Well its pretty hard to take a moderate seriously who has supported 99% of liberal positions posted on this board for the last year."

Wrong again, fox. Just because I don't agree with conservative positions, that doesn't make me a liberal. I was against the war in Iraq; that's not conservative or liberal; it's humanistic. I agree with most of the people in this world who were against this war; they're also not conservatives or liberals. I was against Bush's tax cuts; it's stupid to be providing tax cuts to the wealthy when we're fighting a war. That's not a 'liberal' idea; it's plain common sense. I'm against Bush's social security private accounts; it's a stupid idea, and doesn't save the taxpayers any money. It also means social security benefit reductions by 40 to 50 percent for those who opt to invest some of their social security money into private accounts. I was also against Bush's signing of legislation passed by Congress to direct the courts to review the Terri Shiavo case. That's not a liberal stance; it's a stance on the Separation of Powers. I was against the Patriot Act; it took away Constitutional Rights from Arab Americans; they were forced to register with the feds; it's called racial discrimination and against the Constitutional Rights of this country. Awe, shet, I'm against Bush; that's not a liberal stance, it's an American Stance.
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