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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2005 10:32 pm
Could it be the Shia, then? I thought it was those Sunni's that have been betrayed by the Baathist party.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2005 11:13 pm
Kara, thankee for having a sense of humor .... and welcome
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 12:43 am
Ican, I love your colourful posts, they make such a pretty blurred picture when I scroll them down.
Just like the picture in your skull.

(May I be forgiven. It's a Monday morning after all)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 01:19 am
Kara wrote:
<psst. London. 1st May. Where?>


It's not 100% definate, but must surely at the Penderel's Oak
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 06:26 am
Well I've been away for a while, and everything has changed (not).

Angie I agree with you invading Iraq was on W's agenda long before he took power. The US tried and failed to install a pro western govt in Iraq at the time of the first Gulf war. Having lost Iran to the mullahs, and the natives getting restless in Saudi Arabia, western (oil) interests were in danger of being seriously compromised.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 06:58 am
Quote:

Specials > Iraq in Transition
from the February 28, 2005 edition

Opposing agendas snarl Shiite, Kurd cooperation in Iraq
While jockeying for power continued, the government announced the capture of two most-wanted figures.


By Jill Carroll | Contributor to The Christian Science Monitor
BAGHDAD - In the month since Iraqis rushed to the polls in support of democracy, getting anything done has proved a painstaking process of consensus-building that's now focused on two political groups whose interests are diametrically opposed.

The national assembly that will write the country's permanent constitution cannot meet until key government positions are assigned. And central to determining how power will be allocated are the United Iraqi Alliance (UIA), religious Shiites who hold the majority of seats, and the once-powerless Kurds, who control the second-largest number of seats in the assembly.


The two groups are at loggerheads on a number of issues. The Shiites are determined to use Islam as a legal cornerstone, something the staunchly secular Kurds reject. The Kurds say they will cooperate only with those who offer them control of oil-rich Kirkuk - a promise that Ibrahim al-Jaafari, the Shiite choice for prime minister, has said the UIA will never make.

But the Kurds are showing little inclination, publicly at least, to compromise. "Even if we are forced to fight for our rights" with guns, we will, says Abduljalil Feili, the head of the Kurdistan Democratic Party in central and southern Iraq. "We prefer negotiations and a political solution. [But] we will use all the options we have."

As the political powers continued to jockey for influence, insurgent violence continued with a bomb in Mosul killing eight people Sunday. But the government also announced the detention Sunday of Sabawi Ibrahim al-Hasan al-Tikriti, Saddam Hussein's half-brother and No. 36 on the US list of 55 most-wanted figures. On Friday, officials said they had nabbed Abu Qutaybah, described as a key lieutenant of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Al Qaeda's leader in Iraq.

The Kurds' assertiveness flows from their legal trump card. Under the transitional administrative law (TAL), written last spring by the Interim Governing Council with US guidance, a permanent constitution can be vetoed if three provinces do not ratify it. The Kurds control Iraq's three northern provinces.

"At the rate they are going, they will have to ask for an extension," in writing the constitution, says Nathan Brown, a professor of political science at George Washington University. "The really difficult issues are ones where we just don't have any idea how flexible they will be."

The current political wrangling has its source in laws designed to force disparate political groups to work together, and to prevent another authoritarian regime by giving significant power to minority groups.

Among other consensus-building mechanisms, the TAL requires two-thirds of the national assembly to approve the president, a new government, and a new constitution.

Those requirements have allowed small groups to play spoiler in order to extract promises of influence.

No decisions have been made on filling the presidency, vacancies for two deputies, and the cabinet. But one official from the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), a main group in the UIA, said they hope to meet this week with leaders of the UIA, Kurds, Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, and President Ghazi Yawar, a leading Sunni politician, to negotiate.

The UIA wants to give moderate Sunnis at least three leading positions, possibly one of the deputy presidents, the speaker of the national assembly, and control of a key ministry, such as defense. Most Sunnis boycotted the election and there are fears the Sunni insurgency will worsen if they aren't included in the government.

"The train of democracy is starting down the line," says the SCIRI official. "Maybe we will stay in the station a few minutes, but the train is moving."

UIA officials are also proposing to create a national security position for Mr. Allawi, who has made an aggressive if unlikely bid to keep his job.

Andres Arato, a constitutional expert at the New School University in New York, says Kurdish demands and the two-thirds vote required to approve the new government and permanent constitution may delay the constitution longer than anyone expected. In that event, the country will have to continue to use the TAL, which he says could be destabilizing over the long term. "The very high threshold means you [may] never have a government," Mr. Arato says.

David Phillips, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, says that while Iraq is on an uncharted path, similar experiences in other countries have shown the importance of decentralizing authority. He says it is important to spread power among the country's governorates and local government. While the process is slow, it will probably continue to move forward, he says.

"It's definitely taking time for Iraqis to find common ground, but when you look at each threshold moment [previously] ... they waited until the 11th hour and cut deals," Phillips says. "That's what happening now."

• Wire material was used in this report.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 07:22 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Did anybody else hear "solvers?" It seems to me that terrorist activity increased since our preemptive attack on Iraq.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20050228/ts_nm/iraq_dc

Suicide Bomb Kills 115 Near Iraq Marketplace

42 minutes ago

By Haider Abbas

HILLA, Iraq (Reuters) - A suicide bomber detonated a car near a crowded marketplace south of Baghdad Monday, killing 115 people and wounding 148 in the single bloodiest attack in Iraq (news - web sites) since the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 07:24 am
Quote:
If we go with the impeders there is no chance of the Iraqi people establishing a democratic government that is the Iraqis' own design, that does not murder civilians in Iraq, and that does prevent murderers of civilians in other countries from being based in Iraq.

The impeders want us to emulate in Iraq the same fleeing cowardice the US shamefully exhibited when the US abandoned 100s of thousands of South Vietnamese civilians to their North Vietnamese murderers, or to fleeing their country to avoid being murdered by the North Vietnamese.

The solvers want us to remain in Iraq until the Iraqis themselves ask us to leave


This goes back a few pages. By setting up a straw man ('impeders,") this post gives the appearance of proper rhetoric when it is not. I've heard no one here, and few in the media, who are "against" a democratic government in Iraq or "against" trying to remove terrorists from the country. That would be akin to being "against" apple pie or motherhood.

Few reasonable people would urge the removal of our troops now that the country lies in the ruin and chaos we caused.

Your post is meaningless. We will leave Iraq when the US administration decides we will leave, not when the Iraqis demand it. We will leave when one of two things happens: the country, against all odds and with the hopes of everyone, becomes stable under an Iraqi military supported by dozens of US bases that are being established in Iraq. Or we leave knowing finally that we have failed in our effort at imperial democracy and that the US public will no longer support the loss of this country's blood and treasure.

We see Egypt being swayed by pressure from Bush to make some reforms. What a difference Bush could have made four years ago -- or Clinton or Bush Sr. -- if we had placed strong pressure on Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and elsewhere (many elsewheres...) and continued with such efforts as only we can do, being mighty. What a different world we might see if we had brought all of our will to the peace effort in Israel/Palestine -- again, as only we can do -- rather than taking up arms and losing three years as we "looked the other way" from the world's serious trouble spots.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 08:03 am
Good post Kara

I dont know what should or can be done in Iraq. I feel like walking away from the whole mess. But its a mess we made. And I was (to my shame) one of those who supported the invasion.

I never thought we were threatened by wmd. But I was pursuaded by Tony Blair's rhetoric that getting rid of them and Saddam and building a new democratic Iraq was worth trying.

There was a chance we could have pulled it off. If we had demonstrated a real willingness to work for the people, to restore utilities and some sort of normalcy in summer 2003, then the insurgency might never have got going like it has. Instead, it seems to me, we (and I ahve to be honest here and say I mean primarily the Americans) sat back, cleaned out the swimming pools in the green zone and relaxed, having just "won" the war.

As soon as the remnant Ba'athists teamed up with fanatical islamists, (why was the Iraqi army disbanded?) it was clear there would be trouble ahead, just as Saddam's information minister predicted as the tanks bore down on Baghdad.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 09:59 am
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/28/iraq.main/index.html

125 dead now. It's officially the deadliest insurgent attack since the start of the war.

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:15 am
When do they stop being insurgent attacks and become terrorist attacks?
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:17 am
McGentrix wrote:
When do they stop being insurgent attacks and become terrorist attacks?



After we leave.
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George
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:20 am
They were, are, and will be terrorist attacks.
They are carried out by insurgents.

Are you objecting to the the use of the term insurgent rather than
terrorist as showing bias?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:45 am
A co-ordinated insurgency, even if they use terrorist tactics, implies a larger struggle than simple terrorism.

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:48 am
To what end? What goals have the insurgents posted? What are their ambitions?

These are terrorist strikes plain and simple and it does no justice to idolize theses terrorists as "insurgents" (or "freedom fighters" if you are like Micheal Moore).
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:50 am
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:52 am
Quote:
To what end? What goals have the insurgents posted? What are their ambitions?


Their goals? The removal of an American occupying force. How hard is that to understand?

It does no justice to demonize the insurgents as simple 'terrorists;' they have a right to fight against an occupying force if they so choose.

I don't agree with their tactics, but I hardly think my disagreement is going to stop them; in fact, what does anyone think IS going to stop the insurgents? We sure haven't shown an ability to do that ourselves.

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:52 am
"Shock and Awe" seems to have accomplished the same thing the "terrorists" are doing now.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:54 am
The terrorists don't give a tinkers damn about an occupying force. They aren't even targeting Americans these days. They are targeting anybody who opposes their coming to power and having the ability to exercise their murderous control over the entire population.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:57 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
To what end? What goals have the insurgents posted? What are their ambitions?


Their goals? The removal of an American occupying force. How hard is that to understand?

It does no justice to demonize the insurgents as simple 'terrorists;' they have a right to fight against an occupying force if they so choose.

I don't agree with their tactics, but I hardly think my disagreement is going to stop them; in fact, what does anyone think IS going to stop the insurgents? We sure haven't shown an ability to do that ourselves.

Cycloptichorn


How does a suicide bomber in a crowded area full of Iraqis help in the removal of an American occupying force?

If that was their actual goal, and I do not believe it is, they would be helping the Iraqi government solidify itself and encourage the construction of Iraqi defense forces. That way, the US would no longer be needed.

The only reason the US is still required is to combat the terrorists trying to disrupt the process. Kind of self defeating, isn't it?
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