THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

There is a difference ....I can document the veracity of my posts

This part



Is where you divorce yourself from reality.

How can you seriously even say this? You know the US is going to have the final say in what the Iraqi constitution is. Otherwise, we'll just kick the whole lot of them out and start over.

What, you say the US wouldn't kick a gov't that it doesn't like out of power? What do you think they did in Iraq in the first place?

I'm sure you're response would be 'well, we wouldn't kick a democracy out...' but that's disingenuous, as you don't know that for a fact.

Actually, when it comes to facts and predictions, I am forcefully reminded of your continual and majorly annoying screeds of '94% of Iraqis will vote!' which, of course, turned out to be something of an overestimation. Perhaps you should leave the predictions to those who suffer from less senescence.

Cycloptichorn

You allege that, but don't do that Therefore, you have not verified that you "can document the veracity" of your posts.

Pick one .....

my comments are in blue
, because that is exactly what the Iraqi people are doing If you have reasons to believe "the US will have the final say," other than your own opinion or the opinion of those you adhere to, then post those reasons.[/color]

Otherwise, we'll just kick the whole lot of them out and start over.
This is getting funny. How do you know that we'll do that?
What, you say the US wouldn't kick a gov't that it doesn't like out of power? What do you think they did in Iraq in the first place?
First, I never said that. Second, I did say that as long as the Iraqi government evolves to meet my three predictions, we (the majority of the American voters and our government), will be delighted and root for the Iraqis to follow their own path.

I'm sure you're response would be 'well, we wouldn't kick a democracy out...' but that's disingenuous, as you don't know that for a fact.
First, what makes you "sure?" Second, I did say that as long as the Iraqi government evolves to meet my three predictions, we (the majority of the American voters and our government), will be delighted and root for the Iraqis to follow their own path.

Actually, when it comes to facts and predictions, I am forcefully reminded of your continual and majorly annoying screeds of '94% of Iraqis will vote!' which, of course, turned out to be something of an overestimation. Perhaps you should leave the predictions to those who suffer from less senescence. Cycloptichorn
Actually, I predicted, or rather day-dreamed, more than 93%. (That, I recollect, was the first time I was accused of pulling my opinion out of a dark portion of my anatomy, both before and after I told you and others I day-dreamed the %). My final prediction was 13,131,313/14,000,000 = 93.7951%, because I like the number 13! :wink:

I was wondering when you would finally bring that up. Thankfully, you finally have. Yes, it was a big over-day-dreamed estimation. The actual results were between 58% and 59% of the 14,200,000 registered voters threatened with murder if they did vote. That's about the same percentage of US voters threatened with waiting in line to vote.

My primary motivation for deliberately and repeatedly overestimating was to compensate for your, and others here, repeatedly predicting that the result would be a small turnout less than 50%.

I'd much rather be in my position of seeming over optimism than in yours of persistent, unjustified and actual pessimism.[/quote]

Oh, I'm quite optimistic that we can get things back on track, here at home and in the world at large.

When I asked where you got the 93% number, you didn't say 'I daydreamed it;' you responded with 'from WHAT AM,' implying that you had some sort of special understanding of the geopolitical situation that would lead to such erroneous numbers. You do not, and consequently were wrong. I think you'd be hard pressed to find me making a prediction as to the actual numbers of Iraqi voters in the past.

Do you understand what the word fact means?

Cycloptichorn

okay. " a democracy of their own (iraqi) design". let's say for the sake of argument that is 100% accurate...

what do we believe the face of that democracy will look like ?

On the contrary, I gave you three reasons and actually listed them and told you to take your choice, which you obviously just did.
1. I day dreamed it;
2. From WHAT AM;
3. From American history.

What I daydreamed was my over optimistic %.
What I got from WHAT AM (i.e., my own understanding of reality) is that it would be a large majority (over 58% qualifies as a large majority).
What I got from American history is that despite the fact that every one of our successful past presidents blundered multiple times before they succeeded, they did succeed at what they set out to do. I bet that Bush would probably do the same.

The best I can do and have done now is the following:

The Iraqi people will establish a democratic government that:

1. Is the Iraqis' own design;

2. Doesn't murder civilians in Iraq;

3. Prevents murderers of civilians in other countries from locating in Iraq.

I'll probably make another prediction after I see the Iraqi draft Constitution.

Sometime ago I posted here the following recommendation, but not a prediction.

I recommend that the newly ELECTED ASSEMBLY of the UNITED PROVINCES OF IRAQ shall, in October, 2005, propose to the Iraqi people a Constitution that shall include the following:

1. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people are born equally endowed with certain unalienable rights. Among these unalienable rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

2. To secure these rights, governments are instituted among people, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

3. Whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

4. We the people of The United Provinces of Iraq, in order to form a more perfect and perpetual union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for our governance of our country by our government.

5. No law shall be adopted by our government respecting:

a. establishing of any religion whatsoever, whether atheistic, or theistic, secularistic, or atavistic;

b. prohibiting the free exercise of any religion;

c. abridging the freedom of speech;

d. abridging the freedom of the press;

e. abridging the right of the people peaceably to assemble;

f. abridging the right of the people to petition the government for a redress of grievances;

g. abridging the right of the people to keep and bear arms;

h. abridging the privileges and immunities of any one or more of our country’s citizens;

i. taxing property or money at a different rate depending on its value.

j. granting within its jurisdiction unequal protection of the laws.

6. The enumeration in this Constitution as amended, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others not mentioned in this Constitution but are nonetheless retained by the people.

7. The powers not delegated to the government of our country by this Constitution as amended shall not be exercised by the government of our country.

8. The powers not delegated to the government of our country by this Constitution as amended, nor prohibited by it to the provinces, are reserved to the people, or, as the people of each provinces shall decide, to their respective provinces.

9. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United Provinces of Iraq, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

10. All persons born or naturalized in the United Provinces of Iraq, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United Provinces of Iraq and of the Province of Iraq wherein they reside. No Province of Iraq shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the Provinces of Iraq; nor shall any Province of Iraq deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

11. The right of citizens of the United Provinces of Iraq to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United Provinces of Iraq or by any Province of Iraq on account of race, color, ethnicity, religion, gender, wealth, or previous condition of servitude.

12. Treason against the United Provinces of Iraq shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

13. This Constitution shall always be interpreted in a manner consistent with the interpretation given it by those adopting this Constitution and those adopting its amendments.

14. The legislature of our country, whenever two thirds of its members shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several provinces, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several provinces, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the legislature of our country.

Ican writes:


I recommend you amend this one to read:
"All persons born in the United Provinces of Iraq who have at least one Iraqi parent, or all persons naturalized in the United Provinces of Iraq, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens. . .

I think this was one mitake in our own Constitution that needs to be addressed.

We are so dang smart, we should write the new Iraqi Constitution.

Excellent! How's this?

10. All persons born or naturalized in the United Provinces of Iraq, or who have at least one parent who was born or naturalized in the United Provinces of Iraq, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United Provinces of Iraq and of the Province of Iraq wherein they reside. No Province of Iraq shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the Provinces of Iraq; nor shall any Province of Iraq deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

and perhaps it should be clarified that any immigrant must have entered the country legally ?

I for one are so "dang smart" that I realize that would be dang dumb.
The Iraqi Constitution must be written by the Iraqi people so that it will be "a government of the [Iraqi] people, by the [Iraqi] people, for the [Iragi] people, [that] shall not perish from the earth."

Thanks, Abe, I owe you another one. :wink:

Ican writes



I can live with this and I think the Iraqi people also would be able to live with this just fine.

Now can we get our own legislature to come up something similar as part of an immigration overhaul for the U.S.?

Jeesh, ican even has communication with Abe! LOL

Excellent!

How's this?

Please note, I edited the original recommendation of mine to remove a redundant clause on slavery, so the number of this one becomes number 10 instead of 11.

10. All persons born or lawfully naturalized in the United Provinces of Iraq, or who have at least one parent who was born or lawfully naturalized in the United Provinces of Iraq, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United Provinces of Iraq and of the Province of Iraq wherein they reside. No Province of Iraq shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the Provinces of Iraq; nor shall any Province of Iraq deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Jeesh doesn't everyone?

If they don't, I recommend the following as an adequate substitute:

OUR NATIONS ARCHIVE, THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES IN DOCUMENTS, Edited by Erik Bruun and Jay Crosby, Copyright 1999 by Black Dog & Leventhal Publishers, Inc., page 366, "The Gettysburg Address," by Abraham Lincoln.

You can count on it happening this century ... WHAT AM!.

Two way communication?