THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

Gelisgesti wrote:

And the winner is ........ Ican!!!! ...

I turned the job down. Shocked

You need me here much more than the Iraqis do there. Crying or Very sad

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Emphasis is mine.

Foxfyre wrote:

Rules? Or hope/influence/request/suggestion/initiative? Ultimately it is not up the U.S. to tell Iraq how it will structure its new government. And I have a ton of quotes testifying to that. Did we see a democracy preferable to another Islamic despot? Of course we did and do. But how naive is it to assume that anything related to large numbers of people can be accomplished without fits and starts, a step back and try again, redrawing, renegotiating, and dealing with differences of opinion? How cynical is it to view that process as a failure before it is complete? The founding of the U.S. government would no doubt have looked as messy on the evening news.

And don't forget, the new Iraqi government is being formed in the midst of armed conflict in which a small but deadly group is trying to force its desire for that very Islamic despot, with them as the ruling authority of course, against the wishes of a determined people who want the exact opposite.

What will the Iraqi government ultimately look like? Probably not like the United States, but I have great hope that it will afford the people some degree of self governance. That would be such a huge step forward, it could be one of the great watershed events of history. There will be plenty of time for fine tuning when the people can direct the process themselves.

Outstanding!

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I think, in the rush to impose democracy as well as "freedom", the effect has been to ensure an islamist administration in Iraq which could in a short space of time be as medieval as Iran's or Yemen's.

Not what was intended at all.

But maybe I'm being overly pessimistic.

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I look to Turkey as evidence that you are being overly pessimistic McTag. Smile

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Turkey is an example of a muslim country where the government is secular.

Which is good. Which is how the USA was set up, as it happens, if you swop muslim for christian.

Now sadly not. Born-again God-botherers are in the ascendancy.

I hope the Iraqis can achieve the Turkish model.

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Quote:

In other words, you are admitting that you don't know what Enron corrutions have to do with the subject of this thread.

The implication was of a continuous denial of wrongdoing in the face of available evidence. Which I would have to agree with; as I've stated earlier, it really seems that those who've experienced our more honorable wars are simply incapable of admitting how far we've fallen.

In other news, on MSNBC yesterday, I saw an interview where a retired general calmly sat there and said that shipping people off to foreign countries where the constitution doesn't apply is not only legal, but morally acceptable and every American who doesn't want to be terrorized should get behind the practice.

I thought the interviewer (Reagan Jr.) was going to blow a gasket. His fellow talking head (it was on, I think, Coast to Coast), some blond bobble-head, was asking how we could ever hope to win the WoT with, and I quote, 'one hand tied behind our back by the law.'

We've fallen so far as a country when we defend the same practices as 'neccessary for defense' that Saddam Hussein defended as 'neccessary for defense.'

Cycloptichorn

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That's an interesting opinion Cyc. I don't agree with it, but it is certainly interesting.

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<shrug> it wasn't me saying that it was neccessary to torture people in order to defend the state. It was the commentators on MSNBC and a retired general.

Oh, and brutal dictators such as Hussein. He said/did that a lot as well. What is there to disagree with here? None of this is opinion.

Cycloptichorn

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Like foxfrye said earlier and which I agree Shocked

, Iraq chose their government and they alone are the ones to choose how they want their government. If they want it to be like Iran or Turkey, it is their choice.

Just for the record I am glad that after everything is said and done, the people got to vote and that it seems that if any attempts to manipulate the election were carried out, they seemed to have been unsuccessful and I am glad.

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Well, we could start with the purpose, the methods, and the definition. We could argue that for a long time I figure.

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McTag wites

Quote:

Turkey is an example of a muslim country where the government is secular

Not really. Islam is still the favored religion, protected by law, along with all the requisite holy days etc. All other religions are permitted in Turkey so long as they say out of sight, do not advertise in any form, and/or do not proselytize in any way. Compare that to the U.S. model where all religious groups representing every conceivable known faith receive equal treatment under the law and equal voice in whatever activist endeavors they pursue.

I rather expect Iraq will more closely approximately Turkey.

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Quote:

Well, we could start with the purpose, the methods, and the definition. We could argue that for a long time I figure.

Probably, but we could keep it short and sweet as well.

Purpose: to defend the state. There is no difference whatsoever between the US torturing innocents (and do recall that the vast majority of people we've tortured have turned out to be innocent; they certainly haven't been convicted, and many have been released) in order to 'protect the state' and Saddam doing the same.

Methods: Saddam was undoubtedly more violent and had less regard for human life than we do. If it is a question of degree, yes, he used more brutal methods than we do.

But this doesn't change the fact that many, many people have died during captivity/interrogation by the US, and how many have almost died? We are hardly saints, just because we don't resort to the same level of brutality that Saddam did.

Definition:? I'm not sure how we argue this one. We're talking about sending 'detainees' to foreign countries where US rules of torture (already bent beyond recognition) don't apply. So we don't really know what is going on there, do we?

Cycloptichorn

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http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040502/cagle00.gif

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Quote, "Just for the record I am glad that after everything is said and done, the people got to vote and that it seems that if any attempts to manipulate the election were carried out, they seemed to have been unsuccessful and I am glad." Good point, revel; I agree 100 percent.

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JW :

Funny, true, and sad all at the same time. Nice post.

Cycloptichorn

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Cyclops - if you get any sadder you're gonna have to start taking both the blue ANd the red pills.

Cheer up - we're the good guys. We're winning.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Not really. Islam is still the favored religion, protected by law, along with all the requisite holy days etc. All other religions are permitted in Turkey so long as they say out of sight, do not advertise in any form, and/or do not proselytize in any way.

Well, your government says about religious freedom in Turkey:

Quote:

The Constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the Government generally respects this right in practice; however, the Government imposes some restrictions on Muslim and other religious groups and on Muslim religious expression in government offices and state-run institutions, including universities.
There was some improvement in the status of respect for religious freedom during the period covered by this report. Nevertheless, some Muslims, Christians, and Baha'is faced some restrictions and occasional harassment, including detention for alleged proselytizing or unauthorized meetings. The Government continued to oppose "Islamic fundamentalism." Authorities continue their broad ban on wearing Muslim religious dress in government facilities: including universities, schools, and workplaces.

Source

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Quote:

Cyclops - if you get any sadder you're gonna have to start taking both the blue ANd the red pills.

Cheer up - we're the good guys. We're winning.

I appreciate the good cheer, but I don't think we are winning; I think that we are losing, because the real fight going on right now has more to do with opinion and perception than it does with body counts or whether or not people are voting in Iraq.

It's funny; while I don't think there is a nation on earth, or maybe even all of them combined, that could hang with us in a straight-up fight, I don't think we've adjusted to the newer concept of terrorism and guerrilla warfare, especially amongst an occupied population. From a PR POV (lots of acronyms, lol) we certainly aren't winning over a ton of people worldwide; there are countless studies that show that world opinion is pretty solid against us, hell, even half our own country is against what we are doing, let alone anyone else!

Once again, thanks for the cheers.

Cycloptichorn

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You're maybe gonna need the 'green' pill, too LOL.

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Walter writes

Quote:

Well, your government says about religious freedom in Turkey:

Did you read the entire document Walter? There are contradictions there along with evidence that non- Islamic and even some 'fringe' Islamic groups do not have complete religious freedom in Turkey despite the Turkish government's assertion of 'freedom of relgion'. This is how my friends who have lived in Turkey tell it too--they were free to practice their Christianity so long as they kept it quiet and out of sight.

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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

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