Joe, perhaps you could ask your Muslim friends about the child in Iran (an 11-year old boy) who was whipped to death for eating during Ramada. Or the 13-year old girl who was stoned to death because she was pregnant (raped by her brother and turned in by her father). All Muslims, adhering to truth and virtue.
JustWonders wrote:Joe, perhaps you could ask your Muslim friends about the child in Iran (an 11-year old boy) who was whipped to death for eating during Ramada. Or the 13-year old girl who was stoned to death because she was pregnant (raped by her brother and turned in by her father). All Muslims, adhering to truth and virtue.
You don't really want that we start now a "compettion" who does what, when and why, because she/he thinks, this would be according to some religious laws?
I mean, some kill doctors, who did abortions, others teachers, because they taught "sexuality" ...
The difference, Walter, is State sponsorship.
Or the 13-year old girl who was stoned to death because she was pregnant.
For an Iraqi Family, 'No Other Choice'
Father and Brother Are Forced by Villagers to Execute Suspected U.S. Informant
By Anthony Shadid
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, August 1, 2003; Page A01
THULUYA, Iraq -- Two hours before the dawn call to prayer, in a village still shrouded in silence, Sabah Kerbul's executioners arrived. His father carried an AK-47 assault rifle, as did his brother. And with barely a word spoken, they led the man accused by the village of working as an informer for the Americans behind a house girded with fig trees, vineyards and orange groves.
His father raised his rifle and aimed it at his oldest son.
Mohammed Abu Dhua, whose brother died during a U.S. raid, said Sabah Kerbul, a suspected informant, deserved "worse than death."
"Sabah didn't try to escape," said Abdullah Ali, a village resident. "He knew he was facing his fate."
The story of what followed is based on interviews with Kerbul's father, brother and five other villagers who said witnesses told them about the events. One shot tore through Kerbul's leg, another his torso, the villagers said. He fell to the ground still breathing, his blood soaking the parched land near the banks of the Tigris River, they said. His father could go no further, and according to some accounts, he collapsed. His other son then fired three times, the villagers said, at least once at his brother's head.
Kerbul, a tall, husky 28-year-old, died.
"It wasn't an easy thing to kill him," his brother Salah said.
In his simple home of cement and cinder blocks, the father, Salem, nervously thumbed black prayer beads this week as he recalled a warning from village residents earlier this month. He insisted his son was not an informer, but he said his protests meant little to a village seething with anger. He recalled their threat was clear: Either he kill his son, or villagers would resort to tribal justice and kill the rest of his family in retaliation for Kerbul's role in a U.S. military operation in the village in June, in which four people were killed.
"I have the heart of a father, and he's my son," Salem said. "Even the prophet Abraham didn't have to kill his son." He dragged on a cigarette. His eyes glimmered with the faint trace of tears. "There was no other choice," he whispered.
In the simmering guerrilla war fought along the Tigris, U.S. officials say they have received a deluge of tips from informants, the intelligence growing since U.S. forces killed former president Saddam Hussein's two sons last week. Acting on the intelligence, soldiers have uncovered surface-to-air missiles, 45,000 sticks of dynamite and caches of small arms and explosives. They have shut down safe houses that sheltered senior Baath Party operatives in the Sunni Muslim region north of Baghdad and ferreted out lieutenants and bodyguards of the fallen Iraqi president, who has eluded a relentless, four-month manhunt.
But a shadowy response has followed, a less-publicized but no less deadly theater of violence in the U.S. occupation. U.S. officials and residents say informers have been killed, shot and attacked with grenades. U.S. officials say they have no numbers on deaths, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the campaign is widespread in a region long a source of support for Hussein's government. The U.S. officials declined to discuss specifics about individual informers and would not say whether Kerbul was one.
Lists of informers have circulated in at least two northern cities, and remnants of the Saddam's Fedayeen militia have vowed in videotaped warnings broadcast on Arab satellite networks that they will fight informers "before we fight the Americans."
No Protection From U.S. Troops
The surge of informants has also provoked anger in Sunni Muslim towns along the Tigris. Some residents say informants are drawn to U.S. field commanders' rewards of as little as $20 and as much as $2,500. The informants are occasionally interested in settling their own feuds and grudges with the help of soldiers, the residents said. Others contend that the informers are exploiting access with U.S. officials to emerge as power-brokers in the vacuum that has followed the fall of the government on April 9.
"Time's running out. Something will happen to them very soon," said Maher Saab, 30, in the village of Saniya.
The U.S. military says bluntly it does not have the means to safeguard those providing intelligence. "We're not providing any kind of protection at the local level," said Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the U.S. military commander in Iraq.
In Saniya, where slogans still declare "Long Live Saddam Hussein," Abdel-Hamid Ahmed sat in a well-to-do house along dirt roads and arid fields of rolling hills where sheep graze. He proudly described himself as the first person to greet the invading Americans and ticked off the help he has offered since they arrived, most notably information on saboteurs of electricity wires.
Since then, he said, he has met U.S. soldiers at his house at least once a week, usually for no more than 15 minutes.
"I'm not an informer, but I help explain to the Americans the situation here," he said in a well-kept living room, adorned with a new Toshiba television, a stereo, karaoke machine and 15 vases of plastic flowers.
Ahmed, who works in the mayor's office, was on two lists of informers circulated in the village and in the nearby city of Baiji, 120 miles northwest of Baghdad. Under the heading, "In the name of God, the most merciful and compassionate," each list had about 20 names, and, over the past month, the leaflets were left before dawn on doorsteps and utility posts. On the first list, he was ranked 10th; on the second, he said, he was fourth. He said he told the Americans about two men who distributed the list, and they were arrested.
In the street, some people have heckled him as an agent -- "a grave word," he said. He has not been physically threatened, but a grenade was thrown at another person on the list, Kamil Hatroush, although neither he nor his family was hurt. Ahmed said he carries only a 9mm pistol, eschewing the almost standard AK-47s wielded by most Iraqis in the countryside.
"I'm not scared," Ahmed said, flicking his hand lazily and insisting that only a minority resent those working with the Americans. "If someone wants to kill you, why would they give you a warning first? They would just kill you right away."
Ahmed was kicked out of Baghdad's National Security College in 1983, the training ground for the government's sprawling apparatus of intelligence services. He said the disappointment led him to alcoholism, then part-time work, most recently at the mayor's office, where he earned the equivalent of about $2 a month.
"If the Americans offered me a job in security, I would work with them," he said. "Every person has to plan for the future."
U.S. military officials attribute most of their tips to good will, either out of an informant's desire to eliminate the vestiges of Hussein's rule that are unpopular even in the Sunni Muslim-dominated north, or to end attacks that have unsettled a region still reeling from the government's fall. Maj. Josslyn Aberle, a spokeswoman for the 4th Infantry Division, which is based in Hussein's home town of Tikrit, said only a "very small percentage receive money" and that the U.S. military vets intelligence before acting on it. Ahmed denied seeking money, saying he cooperates for the good of his town.
In Hussein's government, informers were encouraged, paid and protected by the intelligence services, a crucial but despised means of control in 35 years of Baath Party rule. Some residents contend today that at least some people in the new batch of informers -- those willing to defy mounting threats -- have charged protection fees or sold their services as perceived intermediaries with U.S. forces.
Outside Ahmed's house, a group of men sat in a battered white Toyota, as relatives sought an audience with Ahmed for help in getting back a car that was seized by the Americans.
Over the weekend, the family of five men arrested by U.S. forces near their base in Baiji said they gave Ahmed a sheep, worth about $30, to help secure the men's release. He denied it.
In Samarra, about 65 miles north of Baghdad, Abdel-Razzaq Shakr, the brother of the town's mayor, was on another list distributed in the town two weeks ago, with at least six names of suspected informers. Residents said people in the town had gone to Shakr for help with U.S. forces in getting their guns back and to deflect suspicion from friends and relatives.
Shakr acknowledged providing the Americans information on Baathists, but he denied taking money from residents.
"I haven't taken even a cent," said Shakr, 45, who is unemployed. "On the contrary, I want to leave a mark on our town so that our children will thank their fathers for what they did."
A grenade was thrown at his house on July 18. It landed in the courtyard near a tangerine tree, shattering windows but hurting no one. Another person on the list, Mustafa Sadeq Abboudi, was shot in the arm with an AK-47. Shakr said he has a pistol and a rifle, but his brother, Mayor Mahmoud Shakr, has urged him not to seek help from U.S. forces.
"The Americans cannot offer protection," the mayor said. "If the Americans stood outside the door, it would only cause more trouble because it would mean he is definitely working with them."
Sitting in a chair and holding a cup of sweet tea, the mayor expressed frustration. Suspicions have become so common that more than 100 Muslim clerics met last week and issued a statement that not all Iraqis working with U.S. forces should be considered informers. "When ever somebody talks to the Americans," he said, shaking his head, "they think he's an agent."
Calls for Revenge
Residents of Thuluya said they had no doubt about Kerbul. After the operation in the village, dubbed Peninsula Strike, a force of 4,000 soldiers rounded up 400 residents and detained them at an air base seven miles north. An informer dressed in desert camouflage with a bag over his head had fingered at least 15 prisoners as they sat under a sweltering sun, their hands bound with plastic. Villagers said they soon recognized his yellow sandals and right thumb, which had been severed above the joint in an accident.
"We started yelling and shouting, 'That's Sabah! That's Sabah!' " said Mohammed Abu Dhua, who was held at the base for seven days and whose brother died of a heart attack during the operation. "We asked his father, 'Why is Sabah doing these things?' "
In the raid, three men and a 15-year-old boy were killed, all believed by villagers to have been innocent. Within days, many focused their ire on Kerbul, who had served a year in prison for impersonating a government official and was believed to have worked as an informer after he was released. Young children in the street recited a rhyme about him: "Masked man, your face is the face of the devil." Calls for revenge -- tempered by the fear of tribal bloodletting getting out of hand -- were heard in many conversations.
Kerbul's family said U.S. forces took him to Tikrit, then three weeks later, he went to stay with relatives across the Tigris in the village of Alim. As soon as word of his release spread, his brother Salah and uncle Suleiman went there to bring him back.
"We sent a message to his family," said Ali, a retired colonel whose brother was among those killed during the operation. "You have to kill your son. If you don't kill him, we will act against your family."
His father appealed, Ali recalled, saying he needed permission from U.S. forces.
"We told him we're not responsible for this," Ali said. "We told him you must kill your son."
Kerbul's body was buried hours after the shooting, his father said, carried to the cemetery in a white Toyota pickup. He said he and Kerbul's brother accompanied the corpse. Salah, his son who fired the fatal shots, said he stayed home.
Neither U.S. military officials in Thuluya nor Tikrit said they were aware of the killing.
"It's justice," said Abu Dhua, sitting at his home near a bend in the Tigris. "In my opinion, he deserves worse than death."
...Yes, my brother, may we have the wisdom to realize that all democracies are not images of our own, hopefully they will be better there is plenty of room for improvement.
How do you think the GW Bush will accomplish this when many of his own party have been reluctant to enter any foreign engagements except when the US is under immediate threat?
Come on Walter. As if you don't know of heinous atrocities that are sponsored by the Mullahs' Regime in Iran...
Quote:More examples, that I'm sure you don't need, and Revel won't heed, can be found here.Or the 13-year old girl who was stoned to death because she was pregnant.
Just Wonders: I hope you or someone will forward your posted article to the commandant at Guantanamo or perhaps to Atty Gen. Gonzalez or maybe even to Don Rumsfeld. Imagine: results without torture.
Islam is a philosophy dedicated to truth and virtue though it's not presented that way to us in the west, perhaps that why, although we have offered a 50 million dollar reward for turning in Osama bin Ladin, no one has come forward. All Muslims know, and the US officials offering the reward could have checked with any Islamic scholar, that no Muslim can accept a reward for doing the right thing, doing the right thing is the reward.
We haven't a clue what we are doing.
Quote:
The most pertinent foreign policy issue now is how to best rectify the consequences of our and other nations' past behavior in the middle east. I think enabling the people of the middle east, in general, and the people of Afghanistan and Iraq, in particular to establish democracies of their own design is the best way to accomplish that rectification.
"...to establish democracies of their own design...." Yes, my brother, may we have the wisdom to realize that all democracies are not images of our own, hopefully they will be better there is plenty of room for improvement.
How do you think the GW Bush will accomplish this when many of his own party have been reluctant to enter any foreign engagements except when the US is under immediate threat?
Joe(beginnings are seldom easy or predictors of results)Nation
Joe, perhaps you could ask your Muslim friends about the child in Iran (an 11-year old boy) who was whipped to death for eating during Ramada. Or the 13-year old girl who was stoned to death because she was pregnant (raped by her brother and turned in by her father). All Muslims, adhering to truth and virtue.
Or they might know about the people who took the school in Russia, bayonetting babies and taking young girls off to rooms to be gang-raped. All Muslims, adhering to truth and virtue.
What say they about Saddam's rape rooms, rape squads, people shredders and mass graves? All Muslims, adhering to truth and virtue.
In Sudan, Arab Muslims oppress the black Muslims (with a heart like that of a donkey according to Islamic holy scriptures).
If you and your wife were Muslim, Joe, and she chose to leave that faith, according to Islamic rule, it is incumbent upon you to kill her.
I'm not condemning an entire religion, but I can separate out practices which amount to human rights abuses, and I see nothing truthful or virtuous about committing that abuse in the name of Islam (which I understand means 'submission' ...in a literal sense).
Ican - reading your post reminded me of this article I read this morning
Marines wage near-daily battles at Syrian border
Los Angeles Times
Feb. 7, 2005 11:10 AM
AL QAIM, Iraq - This is Iraq's wild west, where for a year Marines have fought a relentless battle with insurgents and smugglers along hundreds of miles of barren desert that is the unmarked border with Syria.
The action here has been overshadowed by ongoing violence in Baghdad, Mosul, and in Fallujah and other cities in the so-called Sunni Triangle. Nevertheless, the Marines' efforts here to choke off the border to foreign mercenaries, jihadists and weapons smugglers has been marked by near-daily military clashes, as well as a drumbeat of U.S. diplomatic pressure on Syria.
Washington has complained that Damascus, at a minimum, is providing a haven for smugglers and insurgents as they prepare to head into Iraq and, at worst, may be assisting their clandestine efforts.
At a series of outposts along the border, Marines seek to block smugglers who work largely at night to spirit their cargo along ancient routes that were once camel trails but now accommodate sport utility vehicles driven at high speeds with lights off.
Mortar and rocket attacks on several Marine outposts are a common occurrence. For weeks, many of the attacks were being launched from the Syrian side of the border, where Marines are forbidden to go and where Syrian law enforcement can be lax. Only after the Marines began returning mortar fire across the border did the insurgents stop using Syrian soil.
In his State of the Union address last week, President Bush said Syria "still allows its territory, and parts of Lebanon, to be used by terrorists" and he called on Syria to "end all support for terror and open the door to freedom."
The Syrians have vigorously denied that they would do anything to fuel Iraq's insurgency. In addition to stepping up border patrols, Syria has built a berm and several watchtowers along a portion of the southern reach of the border.
"It's minimal, to be honest," Lt. Col. Christopher Woodbridge said of the Syrian assistance. "But it's done a lot to shut down the mortar attacks."
Woodbridge, commanding officer of the 1st Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, from Twentynine Palms, Calif., said many of the factors that led Fallujah to become a hotbed for the insurgent movement are also present in towns along the border: weak or corrupt local leadership, support from religious leaders, and an inexhaustible supply of weaponry.
Rather than confront the insurgents in a massive way as they did in the November assault on Fallujah, Marines here have been selective in their tactics.
"We're not going to fight him on his terms," Woodbridge said. "We're not going after him at 2 o'clock in the afternoon after a (roadside bomb) has gone off.
We're going at 2 o'clock in the morning to his living room where he can't hide."
Dozens of suspected insurgents have been arrested in the last four months. And countless weapons and explosive devices have been seized in raids.
Marines from Woodbridge's battalion, working as part of the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit, began stopping trains late last year from Syria headed to Baghdad, 200 miles away. With a tank blocking the tracks, Marines have arrested suspected insurgents.
So brazen had the insurgents become that they were putting foreign fighters on passenger trains that passed within a stone's throw of the main Marine camp here.
Some of those arrested had thousands of dollars in Syrian currency. Others had stacks of U.S. currency, with consecutive serial numbers, Marines said.
As with any anti-smuggling effort, success is difficult to gauge.
The Iraqi government has closed the border crossing at Husabyah. The closure has kept desperately needed fuel from being smuggled from Iraq to Syria where it can fetch a higher price. But it has also led to a shortage of some food commodities on the Iraqi side.
The local economy depends on smuggling, which has frustrated efforts by the United States and the new Iraqi government to gain local cooperation.
Marines here say the insurgents appear to be stepping up their tactics, using roadside bombs with greater explosive power, coordinating ambushes with small arms fire, and intimidating local leaders with greater ferocity.
"They're getting more aggressive, and they're getting more accurate, a little more know-how on how to use the gear they have," said Staff Sgt. Warren Clukey, 35, of Yucaipa, Calif. "But we've shown them, we're not going to give this ground up."
A day without contact with the enemy is rare.
"It just seems to us like it just keeps going, it never stops," said Staff Sgt. Steve Brumfield, 29, of Danville, Va., whose job includes clearing away mines and roadside bombs. (A company commander was killed by such a bomb late last year).
Woodbridge said the Marine camp north of Al Qaim in the town of Husaybah is under such constant attack from rockets and mortars that he takes only essential missions there and has declined to bring in Marine brass for inspection tours.
The terrain is open desert, with only the buttes on the Syrian side providing contrast. The desert is rocky and harsh; summer temperatures soar above 130 degrees; winters are frigid and snow fell on one recent day.
A new chow hall has just opened, named for a Marine lieutenant killed by a roadside bomb. But Marines say there is still a sense of isolation to their outpost.
"I feel like we've been left out here," said Cpl. Billy Epperson, 22, of Tulsa, Okla.
Others seem to relish the sense of being in a wide-open moonscape, far from the rest of the troubled nation and the glare of media.
"As far as being isolated, we get everything we need; food, water and bullets," said Staff Sgt. Jeff Wagner, 35, of Ashland, Mich., who led the "takedown" of the trains.
The population of the region, about 250,000 people, is overwhelmingly Sunni but split along tribal lines. Imams have been known to preach violence against Americans from their pulpits. And tribal rivalries have also made it difficult for U.S. forces to get cooperation.
This is a land of Bedouins, some still living in tents and practicing the migratory life of their ancestors. Others have moved into settlements but retain the old ways. Subsistence agriculture is the dominant economy.
In "The Arab Mind," which is recommended reading for Marine officers assigned to Iraq, anthropologist Raphael Patai said Bedouin culture is marked by an antipathy toward manual labor and change. Woodbridge said he has found this to be true.
"We're talking about a population that is indolent and opposed to change," he said. "It's a very backward area, culturally. It's the hinterland."
The long-range plan for the United States is to turn the border mission over to Iraqi security forces but, like other places in Iraq, their performance has been spotty. A border police unit is deployed along the northern part of the border, and a special squad called the Desert Wolves is deployed along the southern part of the Iraq-Syria border and the Iraq-Jordan border.
For the enlisted Marines, the deployment has been long and harsh, but morale seems high, buoyed by the fact the battalion will soon be going home. Many of the Marines are in their second or third tours in Iraq.
"My mission is to take all my men back home safe," Brumfield said. "So far, I'm 100 percent, and I'm thankful to God for that."
Brumfield isn't the only Marine to have his thoughts turn to religion during the long months on this windswept and lawless frontier.
"I've put my life in God's hands," Epperson said. "I know he sent me here for a purpose."
This has been linked already a couple of times, but still remains a nice reading:
Laird Wilcox on Extremist Traits
.... pointing at anybody in special.
(I even don't screw holes in a cheese!)
I don't think there is anything wrong with revel's behavior. And I think if you took that uber-partisan beam out of your own eye, you might see that. Maybe you and JW would care to open a thread about the defficiencies of Islam (which does mean submission -- to God) if you want to talk about your 'facts'. In the mean time, JWs post was indeed worthy of revel's comment. After all, couldn't I drum up a list of things such as that to show that Americans are barbarians? If I did such a thing you would jump on me faster than slappy on a wet hole and call me out for hating America. If you were being a non-partisan policemen you would have taken issue with JW's post.
If that's true, you should have no trouble pointing out where I accused someone of hatred that wasn't expressing hatred at the time. (Good luck :wink: ).
I'm not the non-partisan police or any other kind of police... but if you follow the link I provided, you'll see my description of Revel's behavior is spot on.
It was she, not I, who ascribed the term "put down" to it.
More examples, that I'm sure you don't need, and Revel won't heed
The list of factual crimes against humanity cited on that link list sources that are not in question so there is nothing partisan about the presentation.
Now, perhaps you'd like to tell me which part of JW's post you think justified an accusation of "rampant hatred"?(Again, I wish you good luck. :wink:)