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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:17 am
InfraBlue wrote:
How could you possibly make your idiotic statement, "Atta boy IB. Don't be ashamed to admit you blame America first without rhyme, reason or any hint of justification," if you couldn't possibly know what the hell that justification might be since I haven't yet said anything, Bill Occom?

If you don't know what justification I have, then stop making assumptive asinine comments like the one you've made, Billy boy.
You volunteered for it when you took up the statement where it originated. I see you still haven't provided a rhyme, a reason or any hint of justification whatsoever... so my statement remains spot on.

Walter, obviously there's a difference. What's your point?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:21 am
Your statement remains asinine, Billy, precisely because it is was and is an assumption.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:25 am
InfraBlue wrote:
Yeah, but if those socialists get too comfy with the communists, then it would best if those socialists were dead.

Right, Billy boy?
Wrong. I have not, and will not defend our actions in Chile.

What's with the "Billy boy" crap?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:26 am
The "Billy boy" crap is with the "atta boy" crap.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:34 am
InfraBlue wrote:
The "Billy boy" crap is with the "atta boy" crap.
Laughing What's next... I know you are but what am I? Laughing Oh, that's right, you're already doing that too.

InfraBlue wrote:
Your statement remains asinine, Billy, precisely because it is was and is an assumption.
Laughing Since you still haven't provided an alternative, that's a funny complaint. That's why the statement was made in the first place. Idea
Laughing
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:41 am
Yeah, I like to do that.

You assumed, and continue to assume, Bill. That's why it's asinine.

Do you know that I don't have a justification?

Do you know that I don't have an alternative?
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:46 am
So, you don't defend our actions in Chile, Bill.

But aren't our actions the prerogative of an Alpha?

So what if our actions there are defendable or not, right?
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:52 am
Ok, I'm off to bed. I'll continue tomorrow.

G'night everyone.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 01:53 am
Well, I guess I'll never know since you've left the America criticism up for half a dozen posts now, still without elucidating a rhyme, a reason, a justification or an alternative. Laughing You just keep complaining that I pointed it out while hinting that you might. Laughing < shakes head and says "good night">
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 02:43 am
And so what we have we learned, young people? We've learned that one of the most effective ways to shut off debate of American Foreign Policy is to accuse any possible opponent of blaming America first even before they have done it and then ask them to defend what they didn't say. See? It's a pre-emptive strike just like the President's! That way we don't learn anything about what either side thinks which is how those who like to think America is the moral authority of the earth like things.

So, please, answer this question without blaming America even if she is to blame, remember she has feelings and doesn't know how fat she is.

Assuming that the spreading of democracy is a bedrock principle of the USA, has the US Foreign Policy in the Middle East since World War II, especially in regard to it's relations with Islamic countries and the Palestinians, fostered or hindered the spread of democracy in the region?

For extra credit: Assume that you are a citizen of Iran, the Arab Emirates, Yemen, Jordan, Syria or any other Middle Eastern country including the Gaza Strip and see if that changes your answer.

Joe (I know she means well.) Nation

PS Don't assume I'm blaming America first, because I'm not and I hope that was pre-emptive enough.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 06:50 am
Quote:
The Wall Street Journal's fog of war

The Wall Street Journal features a science column today that points out one of the dangers -- or, depending on your perspective, benefits -- of spreading false information: Even if you retract it, people sometimes believe it.

The Journal's Sharon Begley previews an about-to-be-released "international study" on perceptions about the Iraq war. Its conclusions: People believe what they want to believe. Researchers showed people a list of stories from Iraq. Some of them were true, but two of them -- stories saying that Iraqis had engaged in an uprising against Saddam Hussein's Baathist party in Basra and had executed Coalition prisoners of war -- were retracted as untrue shortly after they were first reported in the press. As Begley writes, the researchers found that people who were skeptical about the war discounted the false stories, while people who supported war didn't. "People who were not suspicious of the motives behind the war continued to rely on misinformation," one of the researchers said.

Begley writes that people sometimes hold fast to false information when it "fits with their mental model," which people seek to retain "whatever it takes." She says it's a cautionary tale for journalists -- if you put out false information, people will continue to rely on it even if you later retract it.

We wonder if the Journal's editorial board is listening.

As the Columbia Journalism Review reported last year, the Journal's editorials in the run-up to the Iraq war were "hawkisk without a shade of doubt." The Journal said that the war would be "above all about American self-defense," and that, if the United Nations wouldn't do it, the United States would have to act to "prevent the emergence of nuclear- and biological-armed chaos." When Colin Powell briefed the United Nations on the WMDs that turned out not to exist, the Journal declared the case airtight. "The Powell evidence will be persuasive to anyone who is still persuadable," the Journal wrote. "It proves that Saddam is defying the will of the U.N. one more time, hiding his weapons in the hope that the world will again lose its will to stop him. "

In her column today, Begley bemoans the fact that, "six months after the invasion, one-third of Americans believed WMDs had been found, even though every such tentative claim was disconfirmed." We wonder how they got that idea.

-- Tim Grieve
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room//index.html
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 08:20 am
I'm sure IB is touched by your solidarity, Joe. However, the fact remains that I clearly defined the "blaming" as suggesting a 30-year-old wrong on another continent by another administration without a reasonable explanation. This occurred before IB even blurted out his/her agreement with the "blame", without any explanation at allÂ… which is precisely what I accused him/her of. That you would sit and patronize me while pretending that's not the way it went down is very heroic, Joe, and I'm sure IB appreciates it. I, on the other hand am insulted that you'd let your partisan preference interfere with recognizing the obvious fact that ?'he who claims the 30 year old historical reference has relevance' also has the burden of showing why.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 08:54 am
bill, you could have made your point without the finger pointing much more effectively is the point of joe's point, if I am not mistaken.

get my point?
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 08:59 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/06/weekinreview/06filk.html?oref=login&oref=login&oref=login&pagewanted=print&position=February 6, 2005

POST-ELECTION CHATTER

Suddenly, It's 'America Who?'
By DEXTER FILKINS

BAGHDAD, Iraq ?- Through 22 months of occupation nd war here, the word "America" was usually the first word to pass through the lips of an Iraqi with a gripe.

Why can't the Americans produce enough electricity? Why can't the Americans guarantee security? Why can't the Americans find my stolen car?

Last week, as the euphoria of nationwide elections washed over this country, a remarkable thing happened: Iraqis, by and large, stopped talking about the Americans.

With the ballots still being counted here, the Iraqi candidates retired to the back rooms to cut political deals, leaving the Americans, for the first time, standing outside. In Baghdad's tea shops and on its street corners, the talk turned to which of those candidates might form the new government, to their schemes and stratagems, and to Iraqi problems and Iraqi solutions.

And for the United States, the assessments turned unfamiliarly measured.

"We have no electricity here, no water and there's no gasoline in the pumps," said Salim Mohammed Ali, a tire repairman who voted in last Sunday's election. "Who do I blame? The Iraqi government, of course. They can't do anything."

Asked about the American military presence here, Mr. Ali chose his words carefully.

"I think the Americans should stay here until our security forces are able to do the jobs themselves," Mr. Ali said, echoing virtually every senior American officer in Iraq. "We Iraqis have our own government now, and we can invite the Americans to stay."

The Iraqi focus on its own democracy, and the new view of the United States, surfaced in dozens of interviews with Iraqis since last Sunday's election. It is unclear, of course, how widespread the trend is; whole communities, like the Sunni Arabs, remain almost implacably opposed to the presence of American forces. But by many accounts, the elections last week altered Iraqis' relationship with the United States more than any single event since the invasion.

Since April 9, 2003, when Saddam Hussein's rule crumbled, Iraqis have viewed themselves more or less as American subjects. American officials ran their government, American soldiers fought their war, American money paid to rebuild Iraq.

Indeed, the American project to implant democracy in Iraq often seemed to be in danger of falling victim to the country's manifest political passivity, born of a quarter-century of torture centers, mass graves, free food and pennies-a-gallon gasoline. The more the Americans tried to nudge the Iraqis towards self-government, the more the Iraqis expected the Americans to do.

As the insurgents wreaked more and more havoc, and sabotaged more and more of the country's power supply, the Iraqis, not surprisingly, blamed the people in charge. Day by day, many Iraqis' gratitude for the toppling of Saddam Hussein seemed to harden into bitterness and contempt.

After June 28, when American suzerainty here formally ended, not many Iraqis bought the notion that the interim government of Ayad Allawi was anything other than a caretaker regime, hand-picked by the Americans and the United Nations.

All that seemed to change last Sunday, when millions of Iraqis streamed to the polls. Few if any Iraqis had ever voted in anything approaching a free election, yet most seemed to know exactly what the exercise was about: selecting their own representatives to lead their own country.

"Our dilemma is solved," said Rashid Majid, 80, who wore his best jacket to the polls. "We will follow our new leaders, because we have chosen them."

Some Iraqis saw in the election their own liberation, one that many did not feel on April 9, 2003. Mr. Hussein's regime was not toppled by Iraqis but by the American military, a fact that has lingered in Iraqi minds.

Yet after casting ballots in a free election, conducted by more than 100,000 Iraqi poll workers, many Iraqis said they finally felt free - not only from the terrors of the old regime, but also from acute feelings of humiliation about the American occupation.

"The election was a victory of our own making," said Mowaffak al-Rubaie, the national security adviser. "The Iraqi people voted with their own blood."

The newfound self-respect that Mr. Rubaie believes the election conferred on ordinary Iraqis seems to have had an immediate impact on their view of the United States. Suddenly empowered with the vote, Iraqis no longer seem to view America as all-powerful, or themselves as unable to affect events. A result has been a suddenly more accepting view of the United States.

The realism among Iraqis was evident on election day itself. Amid the euphoria of voting, America, which had almost always been the first topic of conversation, was suddenly evanescent, unmentioned in a score of interviews unless a reporter raised it first. And when Iraqis did talk of America, it was with a reasonableness and patience that had seemed missing, a willingness to balance good with bad, to give credit where it is due.

This transition seemed all the more striking for the fact that Apache helicopters roared over the polling centers every few minutes with American troops manning checkpoints only a few blocks away.

Hachim Shahir, an 83-year-old bricklayer standing in line for hours to vote, was asked how it had been possible for somebody like him to arrive at such a late stage in life without ever having voted, and now finally to have cast a ballot. He thought for a long while, then answered: "America - it was America that did it."

And how did he feel about that?

"America will be good if it completes what it came here to do, to bring us democracy, and then it goes home," Mr. Shahir said. "The main thing now is that they keep their promises, and leave. Personally, I believe they will do it."

The new mood appears to have continued since election day. The calls by candidates for a timetable for American military withdrawal have died away. Even a group of Sunni politicians decided last week that they would take part in the drafting of Iraq's new constitution without insisting on a timetable.

Getting Iraqis to take charge of their own affairs, whether by fighting insurgents or taking over government ministries, has been the goal of American leaders here since the fall of Saddam Hussein. After 22 months of trying to persuade the Iraqis to stand on their own, while doing everything for them, the Americans may be finding that Iraqis, now fully sovereign, don't want them to go home so soon after all.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 09:00 am
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=2&u=/nm/20050207/ts_nm/iraq_dc

Quote:
Two Suicide Bombs Kill 27; Al Qaeda Claims Both

1 hour, 54 minutes ago

By Gideon Long

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Suicide bombers killed at least 27 people in attacks in two Iraqi cities Monday in the worst bloodshed since the country's historic election eight days ago.


Al Qaeda's wing in Iraq (news - web sites), led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, claimed responsibility for both blasts and vowed to carry out further attacks on "apostates and their masters," an apparent reference to U.S.-led forces and the Iraqis who work with them.


At least 15 civilians were killed and 17 wounded when a suicide car bomb exploded outside the main police headquarters in the town of Baquba, northeast of Baghdad.


I guess we won't be leaving any time soon which is going to continue to drain our country of money and resources but it seems that we now have no choice. At the risk of blaming america first, if the administrataion had taken time to let the inspection run it's course and have been more diplomatic instead of finger pointing like they was to win more people on our side we wouldn't have had bear so much of the responsiblity and the cost.

But it seems that they may have learned their lesson. That is my positive outlook for today. They are being more even handed in other situations in the world including even the ongoing Palestine/Israel situation and that is encourging, to me at least.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 09:06 am
jw, keep up (as those who are in charge of these things and set the tone for supporters) with blaming iraqi's for mistakes and you will evavorite whatever good thing has come out of Iraqi elections.

We are the occupying force therefore it is our responsiblity in seeing it reconstructed.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 09:08 am
Oh, I agree that the entire exchange was idiotic on both sides, Revel. I feel a little dumber for having participated in it. But it doesn't set well me that I should shoulder the blame or absorb patronization for someone else's overreaction to a valid point because they don't like the tone.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 09:18 am
Caution revel .... first comes the idiot thing then if he can't think of a rebuttle he slips into the 'go see a doctor' bit... pathetic
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 09:22 am
Gel, you still haven't explained the disconnected words you admitted constituted gibberish. Have you made that appointment?

Great story, JW! (Revel, your doesn't make sense. Read her article).

I especially liked Hchim Shahir had to say.

Quote:
Hachim Shahir, an 83-year-old bricklayer standing in line for hours to vote, was asked how it had been possible for somebody like him to arrive at such a late stage in life without ever having voted, and now finally to have cast a ballot. He thought for a long while, then answered: "America - it was America that did it."

And how did he feel about that?

"America will be good if it completes what it came here to do, to bring us democracy, and then it goes home," Mr. Shahir said. "The main thing now is that they keep their promises, and leave. Personally, I believe they will do it."
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Feb, 2005 09:25 am
See .... Sad
0 Replies
 
 

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