THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

Tens of thousands of political prisoners face starvation, torture and summary execution in prison camps in North Korea, according to the testimony of a prisoner to a US Senate inquiry.
In a detailed, frequently harrowing first-hand description of conditions inside Kaechon camp and other detention centres run by North Korea's communist regime, Soon Ok Lee has told the inquiry of apparent biological and chemical weapons experiments on prisoners.

She said she had witnessed numerous other atrocities, including the murder of newborn babies by guards and doctors.

"While I was there, three women delivered babies on the cement floor without blankets," Ms Soon told a Senate judiciary sub-committee chaired by the Democrat Edward Kennedy. "It was horrible to watch the prison doctor kicking the pregnant women with his boots. When a baby was born, the doctor shouted, 'Kill it quickly. How can a criminal expect to have a baby? Kill it.'

"The women covered their faces with their hands and wept. Even though the deliveries were forced by injection, the babies were still alive when born. The prisoner-nurses, with trembling hands, squeezed the babies' necks to kill them," Ms Soon said.

Ms Soon, who was first arrested in 1984, said she was tortured in pre-trial interrogation before being sentenced to a 13-year jail term for crimes against the state.

She said she had managed to survive in the camp only because, with a background as an accountant, she had been given work keeping the camp's records. She was released in an amnesty in 1992 and escaped to South Korea in 1995.

Despite the time that has elapsed since the events she describes took place, international human rights organisations and independent Korean groups say executions, torture and other serious abuses continue in the camps.

One group, the non-governmental Citizens' Alliance for North Korean Human Rights, has published testimony from other camp survivors. In one such account, Yong Kim described the horrors of "No 14 political prison", where he was held until he escaped in 1998 and made his way to South Korea the following year.

The total number of prisoners held in the North Korean gulag is not known but one current estimate puts it at about 200,000, held in 12 or more centres. A source on the Democrat-controlled judiciary committee said the location of many camps had been identified and there were plans to publish satellite photographs of them.

Amnesty International's latest annual report says that North Korea continues to refuse access to independent observers, that executions for political offences are continuing, and that freedom of religion is severely restricted.

"Several thousand Christians were being held in labour camps where they reportedly faced torture, starvation and death," Amnesty said.

The UN human rights committee and the EU expressed serious concerns about human rights to Pyongyang last year.

Senator Sam Brownback, who sits on the judiciary sub-committee, said: "North Korea is today's 'killing field' where millions of people considered politically hostile or agitators - or just being innocent children - starve to death while those in power enjoy luxurious lifestyles."

bill, like foxfrye said we are not the savior of the entire world. Iraq was not worse than other nations in the same way that Saddam starved and oppressed his citizens. Some of those nations actually do have WMD.

Main Entry: ig·no·rant
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&nt
Function: adjective
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence

Main Entry: id·i·ot·ic
Pronunciation: "i-dE-'ä-tik
Variant(s): also id·i·ot·i·cal /-'ä-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
1 : characterized by idiocy
2 : showing complete lack of thought or common sense : FOOLISH
- id·i·ot·i·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Main Entry: 1stu·pid
Pronunciation: 'stü-p&d, 'styü-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French stupide, from Latin stupidus, from stupEre to be numb, be astonished -- more at TYPE
1 a : slow of mind : OBTUSE b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c : lacking intelligence or reason : BRUTISH
2 : dulled in feeling or sensation : TORPID <still stupid from the sedative>
3 : marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting : SENSELESS
4 a : lacking interest or point b : VEXATIOUS, EXASPERATING <this stupid flashlight won't work>

Isn't it just grand that people on a2k know how to find the dictionary definition of words.

All sins are equal is your point Gel? A trillion suffering families doesn't equal more "bad"?

And if it does; shouldn't the goal be to reduce the number as much as possible?

Last update: February 5, 2005 at 10:14 PM
Shiites plan to assert Islamic values in country's constitution
Edward Wong, New York Times
February 6, 2005 SHIITE0206

NAJAF, IRAQ -- With religious Shiite parties poised to take power in the new constitutional assembly, leading Shiite clerics are pushing for Islam to be enshrined in the new constitution, governing such matters as marriage, divorce and family inheritance.

On other issues, opinion varies, with the more conservative leaders insisting that Shariah, or Islamic law, be the foundation for all legislation.

Such a constitution would be a sharp departure from the transitional law that the Americans enacted before appointing the interim government led by Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. One focus of the U.S. effort then was to secure equal rights for women and minorities. But in the constitutional assembly, the U.S. influence will be much reduced. Under Shariah, for instance, daughters would receive half the inheritances of sons.

When the interim law was written in early 2004, U.S. officials persuaded Iraqi drafters to designate Islam as just "a source" of legislation. That irked senior Shiite clerics, who, confident they now have a popular mandate from the elections, are advocating for Islam to be recognized as the underpinning of the government.

The clerics' demands underscore the biggest question surrounding the new government: How Islamic will it be?

Many factors could force the clerics to compromise their vision. The alliance of Shiite politicians in the constitutional assembly could splinter as its members vie against one another for power and trade favors with rival politicians like Allawi. Too strong a push for a Shiite religious state could prompt opposition from Sunni Arabs, the formerly dominant minority that already feels disenfranchised, or from the Kurds, who can exercise veto power over the new constitution.

And Shiite politicians, recognizing a possible backlash from secular leaders and the Americans, have publicly promised not to install a theocracy similar to that of Iran or allow clerics to run the country.

Enormous influence

But the clerics of Najaf, the holiest city of Shiite Islam, have emerged as the greatest power in the new Iraq. They forced the Americans to conform to their timetable for a political process. Their standing was bolstered last Sunday by the high turnout among Shiite voters and a widespread boycott by the minority Sunni Arabs, and the clerics will now wield enormous behind-the-scenes influence in the writing of the constitution by their coalition built around religious parties.

The leading Shiite clerics say they have no intention of taking executive office and following the Iranian model of direct government by religious scholars. But the clerics also say that the Shiite politicians ultimately answer to them and that the top religious leaders will shape the constitution through the politicians.

It was the country's most revered Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who initially demanded speedy elections, knowing that a popular vote would bring to power a legitimate government run by the majority Shiites. When the Bush administration objected, the ayatollah forced the White House to back down by calling protesters into the streets of Iraq.

Al-Sistani's power was felt again when his office assembled the United Iraqi Alliance and exhorted voters to turn out last Sunday.

Adnan Zurfi, the governor of Najaf and a former student in the Shiite seminary there, said of the clerics: "The most important thing for them is to write the constitution. This is why they supported the elections."

But how much Islamic influence the clerics manage to get into the constitution could come down to the sentiments of ordinary Iraqis. Saddam spent much of his rule molding Iraq into one of the most secular nations in the Middle East. That indoctrination is not easily cast off.

"There are some people who are close to Iran, who lean toward Iran," said Shakir Mahmoud Abdul-Hussein, 47, a union leader who voted for the secular slate led by Allawi. "Those with turbans will ruin our country. They just want to permit things for themselves and not for others."

OCCOM BILL wrote:

All sins are equal is your point Gel? A trillion suffering families doesn't equal more "bad"?

And if it does; shouldn't the goal be to reduce the number as much as possible?

That is what I'm trying do figure out. At what point do you feel it is time to intervene and when do you stop. You say 'reduce' ....to what number?Nam would still be going on if not for the loss of popular support
58,000 American and a couple million Viet Cong. How does one decide ..... for me, I stop at number one for obvious reasons.

confused and a little pissed off