THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

No partisan nonsense here, Joe. I first blame George Sr. for not finishing the job

Excerpt from "Why We Didn't Remove Saddam" by George Bush [Sr.] and Brent Scowcroft, Time (2 March 1998):

While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

I've been told that the same passage appears on page 489 of Bush and Scowcroft's book, A World Transformed (Alfred A. Knopf, 1998).

OBILL...
...You really should read up on this stuff before you start pontificating

Gelisgesti wrote:

OBILL...
...You really should read up on this stuff before you start pontificating

What makes you think I haven't read that, Gel? You should consider the justification for your own baseless assumptions before advising others.

The result of this wisdom was heinous repression and millions more murdered. Some vision, that.

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Feb. 3 - Preliminary election returns released Thursday by Iraqi authorities showed that 72 percent of the 1.6 million votes counted so far from Sunday's election went to an alliance of Shiite parties dominated by religious groups with strong links to Iran. Only 18 percent went to a group led by Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, a secular Shiite who favors strong ties to the United States. Few votes went to Sunni candidates

As for murdering millions; I'm referring specifically to the 1,000,000-plus people Saddam starved to death by 1998 (according to the UN, mind you) and however many more between then and his removal. Again, that's according the UN Joe... you want I should find a more reputable source

Special correspondent Salih Saif Aldin in Tikrit: A rumor spread here that anyone who did not vote would lose his or her food rations. But that did nothing to boost turnout in ousted president Saddam Hussein's home town.

"It is a very weak participation in Tikrit," said Khalaf Muhammed, 43, the electoral commission official in charge of a polling station in the city's center -- who acknowledged spreading the false rumor to try to lure voters.

"Even though we spread a rumor in the city saying anyone who doesn't vote will be deprived of their food ration, only 10 people voted . . . mostly old men."

The rumor about food rations also was rife in the Sunni neighborhoods of Baghdad, gaining credence because voter registration rolls were taken from centralized records for the ration of rice, flour, oil and other staples.

seems they are having a good time together ! [/URL]

Baghdad Blogger says elections no "magic pill"
Fri Feb 4, 2005

By Wendel Broere
ROTTERDAM (Reuters) - Salam Pax, the Baghdad Blogger whose bulletins from Baghdad during and after the war were read by thousands on the Internet, says it will take longer than Iraqis expected for their country to return back to normal.

"Since last January it's been kind of a downhill ride and I don't really think that these elections are suddenly going to be the 'magic pill' that suddenly makes everything OK," Pax told Reuters at the Rotterdam film festival where the film "Baghdad Blogger" is being shown.

Pax, a pseudonym taken by the 32 year-old architect, whose real first name is Salam (both names mean 'peace' in Latin and Arabic respectively), says Iraqis believed life would get better after Saddam Hussein was toppled in 2003 bringing an end to decades of rule by minority Sunni Muslim Arabs.

"I think all Iraqis realise that is not the case. We are looking at something that will take 5 years maybe," he said.

Election results starting to emerge show that a religious Shi'ite coalition, the United Iraqi Alliance, has won two thirds of the votes counted so far, with interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's list in second place with about 18 percent.

In the film "Baghdad Blogger", Pax, who was given a one-week course in filmmaking by the Guardian newspaper which also published chunks of his blog, crosses Iraq filming militants in the capital to Muslim women's bedrooms.

DEMOCRACY, WHISKY AND SEX

"Democracy, whisky, sex", is what one Iraqi blurts out when asked by Pax in his film, a series of shorts made on a hand-held camera, what he expected after Saddam's rule had ended. But that mood has changed.

"People now feel very bitter, very angry, very upset, there isn't anymore the sense of fun and euphoria," said Pax, who still lives in Iraq. Iraqis knew they could stay out of trouble under Saddam as long as they did not talk about him or complain.

"Now what happened is that you do not know anymore where the problem areas are," he said.

Asked how he could still stay optimistic, he said: "I have no other choice: if you look at the situation now, why would you do anything. Just sit down at home, shut your doors, close your windows and hope nothing bad happens to you."

The only way forward, he said, is to look to the future and the drawing up of a new constitution. Work is expected to begin soon after the 275-seat National Assembly is inaugurated.

Salam Pax' work can be found at http://www.thebaghdadblog.com/home/

When you have time, oBill....

Quote:

As for murdering millions; I'm referring specifically to the 1,000,000-plus people Saddam starved to death by 1998 (according to the UN, mind you) and however many more between then and his removal. Again, that's according the UN Joe... you want I should find a more reputable source

?

Yeah. I'd like to know specifically, since you said that Saddam was killing millions during the Clinton administration, how many died at the hands of Saddam's regime? You want to throw up a million number that ends in 1998 but gives no starting point and you want to count all the malnutrition cases and blame the Clintonites, well, I'm not buying it. What are you going to add in next all the traffic deaths due to bad roads??? It doesn't fly, not when you are using the number as a point for invasion and trying to make it look like it was all someone else's fault, all while accusing others of having partisan delusions. Shucks.

Bill:

Given your views about fundamental Islam and Iran I am wondering what you think about the article I posted? To refresh, here is the first relevant paragraph.