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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 09:45 am
Quote:
You mean in contrast to the neo-cons in Washington, constrained as they are by common sense and the rule of law? Who would never kill innocent people by bombing?


Yes, McTag, those same advanced-nuclear-weapon owners who will not become party to the International Criminal Court, those same it's-right-because-I-say-so folks.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 09:46 am
You have to give them credit though. Apparently Condi Rice is the only human on the planet credited with having the perception and ability to stave off an al Qaida attack single handedly. We definitely need to elect this woman supreme dictator of the entire world if not goddess.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 09:48 am
There are millions of us living in Joe's nation, McGentrix.

Thanks for the funny CA secession letter, McTag. As a CA native, I've received it from dozens of folks but it still reads well.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 11:02 am
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050203/wl_nm/iraq_police_dc&cid=574&ncid=1480

Quote:
Two Policemen Dead, 36 Missing After Attack in Iraq

7 minutes ago


BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Two Iraqi policemen were killed, 14 wounded and at least 36 were missing after an ambush while they were on their way to Baghdad from southern Iraq (news - web sites) on Thursday, police said.


They said the policemen had been traveling from Diwaniya, 180 km (112 miles) south of Baghdad, to the capital to collect new vehicles when they were ambushed.


Officials in Diwaniya confirmed that a large group of policemen had left the town to travel to Baghdad.


U.S. forces sealed off the site of the ambush, near the Abu Ghraib area on Baghdad's western fringes.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 01:00 pm
Quote:
Turkey warns of 'action' on Kirkuk

uploaded 02 Feb 2005


ANKARA, Jan 31: Turkey warned on Monday that it could take action if Kurdish attempts to take control of Kirkuk, in northern Iraq, plunge the oil-rich city into ethnic turmoil while a top US envoy sought to ease Ankara's security concerns.

In comments published in a newspaper interview, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul renewed concerns that more Kurds than those expelled under Saddam Hussein's rule had settled in Kirkuk, altering the demographic structure of the city which is also home to large numbers of Turkmens, a community of Turkish descent backed by Ankara.

"We are observing that the situation has reached dangerous proportions," Mr Gul told the English-language Turkish Daily News newspaper. "Now our fear is the possibility that these gross changes in the demography of Kirkuk could trigger an ethnic confrontation, which has not been seen so far."

"If our brothers (Turkmens) are not treated well, if they are subjected to oppression, such developments will hurt us deeply, and in a democratic society administrations cannot remain indifferent, or merely spectators, to such developments," Mr Gul said.

The minister did not say what action Turkey could take but stressed that Ankara had no territorial ambitions over Iraq and respected its borders. "Our borders are clear. We have no territorial designs. We have no territorial demands on any country. When we talk about the integrity of Iraq, we mean the internationally recognized borders of Iraq," Mr Gul said.

Ankara says that many of the Kurds who moved to Kirkuk following the US-led occupation and who voted in Sunday's elections have no bonds with the city and sees the influx as part of a Kurdish design to take control of the city and make it the capital of a future independent Kurdish state.

Many Turkish newspapers on Monday ran front-page reports quoting Kurdish leader Massud Barzani, who heads one of two Kurdish factions controlling the north, as saying that Iraqi Kurds would one day have their own independent state.

"The elections end, their mask comes off," said the daily Aksam, referring to the Kurds, while the Vatan daily headlined "Barzani challenges Turkey".


http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=10702&TagID=2

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 02:55 pm
Perhaps it really wasn't for oil, but for fun?

U.S. general says "fun to shoot people"

Quote:
Marine General Counseled for Comments

Thursday February 3, 2005


WASHINGTON (AP) - The commandant of the Marine Corps said Thursday he has counseled a senior subordinate for saying publicly, ``It's fun to shoot some people.''

Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis, an infantry officer who has commanded Marines in both Afghanistan and Iraq, made the comments Tuesday while speaking to a forum in San Diego about strategies for the war on terror. Mattis is the commanding general of the Marine Corps Combat Development Command in Quantico, Va.

According to an audio recording of Mattis' remarks, he said, ``Actually, it's a lot of fun to fight. You know, it's a hell of a hoot. ... It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right upfront with you, I like brawling.''

He added, ``You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,'' Mattis continued. ``You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them.''

Thursday, Gen. Mike Hagee, commandant of the Marine Corps, issued a statement saying, ``I have counseled him concerning his remarks and he agrees he should have chosen his words more carefully.''

``While I understand that some people may take issue with the comments made by him, I also know he intended to reflect the unfortunate and harsh realities of war,'' Hagee said. ``Lt. Gen. Mattis often speaks with a great deal of candor.''

Hagee also praised Mattis, calling him ``one of this country's bravest and most experienced military leaders.''

He said the commitment of Marines ``helps to provide us the fortitude to take the lives of those who oppress others or threaten this nation's security. This is not something we relish, yet we accept it as a reality in our profession of arms.''

He said he was confident Mattis would continue to serve.

According to Mattis' biography, he commanded, as a lieutenant colonel, an assault battalion during the first war with Iraq. During the war in Afghanistan, he commanded the 1st Marine Expeditionary Brigade; in the second war in Iraq, he commanded the 1st Marine Division during the invasion and early period after the war.
Source
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 03:48 pm
Quote:
Documents: U.S. condoned Iraq oil smuggling
Trade was an open secret in administration, U.N.
From Elise Labott and Phil Hirschkorn
CNN
Wednesday, February 2, 2005 Posted: 10:04 PM EST (0304 GMT)


(CNN) -- Documents obtained by CNN reveal the United States knew about, and even condoned, embargo-breaking oil sales by Saddam Hussein's regime, and did so to shore up alliances with Iraq's neighbors.

The oil trade with countries such as Turkey and Jordan appears to have been an open secret inside the U.S. government and the United Nations for years.

...

'Either silent or complicit'
Rep. Robert Menendez, a New Jersey Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, one of five panels probing the oil-for-food program, told CNN the United States was "complicit in undermining" the U.N. sanctions on Iraq.

"How is it that you stand on a moral footing to go after the U.N. when they're responsible for 15 percent maybe of the ill-gotten gains, and we were part and complicit of him getting 85 percent of the money?" Menendez asked.

"Where was our voice on the committee that was overseeing this on the Security Council?

"The reality is that we were either silent or complicit, and that is fundamentally wrong."

Former State Department diplomat Walker said, "It was almost a 'don't ask, don't tell' kind of policy. It was accepted in the Security Council. No one challenged it."

John Ruggie, a former senior adviser to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, said U.S. diplomats focused on assuring U.N.-approved shipments to Iraq were free of military components, and the United States felt Jordan and Turkey needed to be compensated for the adverse impact of the sanctions.

Ruggie said, "The secretary of state of the United States said each and every year that those illegal sales were in the national security interest of the United States. So it wasn't just that the U.S. was looking the other way."


Not good.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 03:56 pm
Some 24 hours later than the original report was published, we can read in the Washington Times
Quote:
U.S. defends knowledge of illegal oil sale

Washington, DC, Feb. 3 (UPI) -- The U.S. State Department Thursday defended turning a blind eye to the illegal sale of oil by Saddam Hussein's Iraq to its neighbors.

"I think that you can argue ... that these countries are critical to America's interests in the region, and for that reason we need to preserve these relationships," deputy spokesman Adam Ereli said.

Saddam defied sanctions and sold oil to neighbors, including Turkey and Jordan, both U.S. allies.

Ereli said Turkey was a "vital partner" in containing Iraq and Jordan a key partner "in any one of a number of endeavors."

During the sales, Ereli said, the State Department notified Congress each year requesting waivers, saying these countries were critical to U.S. interests in the region.

The comment came after a CNN report Thursday that said Iraq's oil trade was an open secret inside the U.S. government and the United Nations for years despite the sanctions, which were imposed after Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait.

Iraq is estimated to have earned between $5.7 billion to $13.6 billion from the sales.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 03:56 pm
When was this? During Clinton's regime?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 03:57 pm
Yes, and Bush's.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 03:58 pm
McGentrix wrote:
When was this? During Clinton's regime?


And Bush junior, McG.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 04:02 pm
Amazing.

CNN is reporting that Rummy tried to resign twice during the Abu Ghraib scandal and the Pres. turned him down both times, according to an interview today with Larry King.

Now, why would he do that? Hmm?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 04:29 pm
Does this OFF stuff mean that when you guys are yammering about George Bush wanting to invade Iraq when he took office; you now think he was right? Or, will you continue to assume he was wrong, and continue to work backwards from there, anyway? (Operative word being backwards.)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 04:31 pm
I think some won't be happy until they can pin the entire OFF scandal on George W. Bush. I'll bet O'Bill a twinkie that somebody will try within the week.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 04:50 pm
The more things change the more .......

Quote:
U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote :
Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror

by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967: p. 2)

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.

According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong.

The size of the popular vote and the inability of the Vietcong to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here.

Pending more detailed reports, neither the State Department nor the White House would comment on the balloting or the victory of the military candidates, Lieut. Gen. Nguyen Van Thieu, who was running for president, and Premier Nguyen Cao Ky, the candidate for vice president.

A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam. The election was the culmination of a constitutional development that began in January, 1966, to which President Johnson gave his personal commitment when he met Premier Ky and General Thieu, the chief of state, in Honolulu in February.

The purpose of the voting was to give legitimacy to the Saigon Government, which has been founded only on coups and power plays since November, 1963, when President Ngo Dinh Deim was overthrown by a military junta.

Few members of that junta are still around, most having been ousted or exiled in subsequent shifts of power.

Significance Not Diminished

The fact that the backing of the electorate has gone to the generals who have been ruling South Vietnam for the last two years does not, in the Administration's view, diminish the significance of the constitutional step that has been taken.

The hope here is that the new government will be able to maneuver with a confidence and legitimacy long lacking in South Vietnamese politics. That hope could have been dashed either by a small turnout, indicating widespread scorn or a lack of interest in constitutional development, or by the Vietcong's disruption of the balloting.

American officials had hoped for an 80 per cent turnout. That was the figure in the election in September for the Constituent Assembly. Seventy-eight per cent of the registered voters went to the polls in elections for local officials last spring.

Before the results of the presidential election started to come in, the American officials warned that the turnout might be less than 80 per cent because the polling place would be open for two or three hours less than in the election a year ago. The turnout of 83 per cent was a welcome surprise. The turnout in the 1964 United States Presidential election was 62 per cent.

Captured documents and interrogations indicated in the last week a serious concern among Vietcong leaders that a major effort would be required to render the election meaningless. This effort has not succeeded, judging from the reports from Saigon.

NYT. 9/4/1967: p. 2.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 07:06 pm
[/QUOTE]Does this OFF stuff mean that when you guys are yammering about George Bush wanting to invade Iraq when he took office;
Quote:


Bill, we all found out, too late, that his groupies did indeed have Iraq in their sights. We did not know. And you wonder why some of us are so cynical? The populace should not be uninformed if they are to help make decisions about the actions of their country. Were we the dirt under their feet? Too dumb to be informed and help make decisions? Too limited in foresight that we must be kept in the dark while the brilliant strategists create policy, implement it, and tell us a story to keep us quiet?

Does this remind you of another country, another time?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 07:12 pm
No, Kara, it's happening now.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 08:47 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
Well, of course, an invasion was necessary insufficiency in removing al Qaeda from Afghanistan and Iraq. The necessity of such insufficiency is self-evident. Has Bush decided what is sufficient, but unnecessary, to remove al Qaeda there, ican?

I think you need a tutorial! Shocked

I actually wrote that the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq by the US were necessary but not sufficient for removing al Qaeda camps from those two countries. I said nothing about "necessary insufficiency," or "necessity of such insufficiency," or "sufficient but unnecessary." Those are your silly concoctions. But of course you know that much. Right Question Rolling Eyes

Perhaps you really don't know that when one says that action A is necessary but not sufficient to accomplish consequence B, one means that unless action A is taken, consequence B cannot be accomplished even if all other necessary actions are taken. However, if action A were sufficient to accomplish consequence B, then of course, if action A were to be taken, then consequence B would be accomplished without any other actions being taken. Smile
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 09:04 pm
REALLY STUPID ASSERTIONS

#1 We should wait until we can prove THAT a threat to civilians in America is an imminent threat before we attempt to eliminate that threat.
#2 We should wait until it is proven that civilians in America are threatened with ready-to-use WMD (i.e., chemical, biological toxic agents and/or nuclear weapons) before we attempt to remove the possessor of those WMD.
#3 We should wait until it is proven that civilians in America are threatened with ready-to-use conventional weapons/munitions (e.g., bombs, rockets, hand grenades ,bullets) before we attempt to remove the distributor of those conventional weapons.
#4 The public declaration by al Qaeda that Muslims have a duty to kill civilians in America is not a real threat to civilians in America.
#5 The hundreds of weapons/munitions depots discovered in Iraq were never a real threat to civilians in America.
#6 The few hundred al Qaeda encamped in northern Iraq were never a real threat to civilians in America.
#7 Because al Qaeda controlled the encampment of al Qaeda in northern Iraq, Saddam’s regime had no real way of obtaining control of the encampment of al Qaeda in northern Iraq.
#8 George Bush knew that the Saddam Regime didn’t possess WMD at the time he ordered the invasion of Iraq.
#9 The Bush administration is trying to force democracy down the throats of the Iraqi people.
#10 The Iraqi election was illegal.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Feb, 2005 09:41 pm
Kara, they'd have had to have been incompetent to not have Iraq in their sights. Clinton had Iraq in his sights perpetually, came within minutes of triggering the invasion himself, and ultimately decided to turn the blind eye while Saddam murdered millions. Sell partisan nonsense and paranoid delusions to someone else; I'm not buying.
0 Replies
 
 

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