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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 06:59 am
I hope they do capture the fellow. But the benefits gained are likely to be about the same as when Sadaam was found...cheerleaders waving pom poms madly, but the scoreboard unaffected in any real or substantial way.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 07:42 am
blatham wrote:
I hope they do capture the fellow. But the benefits gained are likely to be about the same as when Sadaam was found...cheerleaders waving pom poms madly, but the scoreboard unaffected in any real or substantial way.


Honestly Blatham .... while you don't consider the availability of a higher end spider hole of the opulence expected of his stature, think again mon frair..... even as a sublet Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 07:58 am
gel

Elsewhere, I passed on a wonderful golf anecdote, but it fits here. Trevino and Rodriguez were walking down a fairway at a big PGA event, and as they passed a row of porto-potties, Trevino pointed to them and said, "Look, Puerto Rican townhomes." To which Rodriguez replied, "Yes. We lease out the basements to Mexican families."
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 08:03 am
blatham wrote:
gel

Elsewhere, I passed on a wonderful golf anecdote, but it fits here. Trevino and Rodriguez were walking down a fairway at a big PGA event, and as they passed a row of porto-potties, Trevino pointed to them and said, "Look, Puerto Rican townhomes." To which Rodriguez replied, "Yes. We lease out the basements to Mexican families."


Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 08:08 am
This man I would vote for ..... if he showed up more often

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/artman/uploads/faulkner.jpg

Quote:
Bush Photo with Teen Shows Conviction and Compassion Editorial by CK Rairden
May 10, 2004

It started out as a fluke. Lynn Faulkner had been offered an extra ticket to a Bush campaign event by his neighbor Linda Prince. Mr. Faulkner decided to offer it to his 15-year old daughter Ashley who he expected would decline, as she would have to miss some school to attend. But his daughter surprised him. Ashley reminded her dad how four years ago they attended a similar event when then Texas Governor George W. Bush visited the same spot on the campaign trail.



Ashley remembered attending that event with both her father and her mother Wendy Faulkner. It was raining that day and they all stood in the rain awaiting Governor Bush "eating Triscuit crackers" enjoying the time together and hoping to get a glimpse of the would-be president. Ashley recalled holding her mothers hand as they waited. So she decided to go again this year, but this time her mother could not attend. Wendy Faulkner was murdered on 9/11/01 in the south tower of the World Trade Center. She was there on the 104th floor for a one-day meeting. Ashley decided to miss school in honor and remembrance of her mother and attend the event.



So the trip was on. Linda Prince, along with Lynn and Ashley Faulkner, were off to the Golden Lamb Inn in Lebanon, Ohio for the event. The group arrived early and got a spot close to the front. As the event wound down, the president worked the line in full campaign mode shaking hands and signing autographs. As the president passed the group, Mr. Faulkner got an autograph, and the president continued on until Linda Prince spoke up, "This girl lost her mother on 9/11," Prince told the president.



Then everything changed.



"The president's entire expression transformed," Mr. Faulkner told me on Sunday. "He turned and came back against the flow and his eyes locked on Ashley's. His face showed a man who was no longer the president, he was a father and a husband." President Bush made his way back to Ashley and he embraced the 15-yeal old young woman. "She snuggled in with the president just like she did when she was a little girl with her dad," Mr. Faulkner said. "I know it's hard," Mr. Faulkner heard the president tell his daughter. "I'm okay," Ashley told the president. The embrace continued.



Mr. Faulkner had his Kodak digital camera with him and debated on invading this very private moment between his daughter and the leader of the free world. "For 20-30 seconds the president belonged exclusively to Ashley," Lynn Faulkner told me. So he decided to capture the moment without invading Ashley and the president's privacy. He held up his digital camera, not even aiming with his eye and with one click snapped just one picture. It showed in detail the face of a compassionate man who just happens to be the president comforting a young woman who lost her mother in the 9/11 attacks on America.



Mr. Faulkner told me that he saw tears in his daughter's eyes, and saw emotion that he hadn't seen from his daughter in 2 ½ years. Ashley told her dad, "The way he was holding me, with my head against his chest, it felt like he was trying to protect me, he wanted to make sure that I was safe." That feeling is captured in a very clear way in this moving unscripted photo. It's the only photo of this special embrace as the press corps had already been ushered back on the bus. And the photo was never meant for publication. All Mr. Faulkner did when he returned home from the event was e-mail it to 15 friends and family. But by the middle of last week, I had received the photo from eight different people. Others were also receiving the photo and forwarding it along. It became an Internet phenomonen, as it was e-mailed around America.



Mr. Faulkner called the embrace "President Bush's precious gift to my daughter." And with his small act of e-mailing that photo to friends and family, the picture can now become a gift to the American people.



And as sad as the story is the release and publication is a good thing. Disgusting photos coming out of Iraq for the past 10 days have shocked Americans, as they should have. But no longer are the terrible images of 9/11 shown. While the Iraq prison photos have been picked up by the elite media and shown time and again, this touching photo has gone largely ignored by the mainstream media. But the alternative media has made this touching powerful photo one of the most e-mailed photos of last week. The Internet once again took over where the elite media failed. Matt Drudge ran it on May 7th, as did the Page 2 Politics journal, and hundreds of other blogs. Millions have now seen it, but millions more need to. It gives a stark reminder why America is at war with radical Islam and other terrorists around the world that are determined to cause this kind of pain to other American families.



The images of 9/11 have faded in the minds of far too many Americans. This picture and this family's riveting story give a stark reminder of why America is at war. Each day around the globe our soldiers are fighting in an attempt to prevent any other event as terrible as the murders that took place on 9/11. Look hard at this picture. See the compassion and sadness on the president's face. Look at this young woman, see her grief and listen her father's words. Ashley and her sister Loren just spent their third Mother's Day without their mother, as did thousands of other children who lost their mothers on 9/11 at the hands of ruthless uncaring terrorists. Imagine yourself in that position.



Then remember why America is at war, and consider the type of person America should have leading that war.



The Faulkner family is continuing Wendy Faulkner's legacy of giving by setting up The Wendy Foundation which sends packages of clothing, food, medicine, toys and other items to orphanages and impoverished families in Third World countries. You can visit their Website at www.wendyfoundation.org.



CK Rairden is the Editor of The Washington Dispatch.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 08:17 am
I'm filling up, here. The Bush administration's main preoccupation immediately post-9/11 was to get the Saudi dignitaries out of the country, and we never have been told why. Nobody else could fly on that day, only warplanes and aircraft with Saudis in them. Why, George?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 08:33 am
McTag, I've always thought it was for their own protection.

What is that ANNOYING link that has started happening to turn words into ads?????? Sad
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 09:42 am
Joe(This is not Iowa, Nebraska and Kansas, Toto.)Nation I believe whole heartedly that Iran, Syria and the Saudis are on the same side with the Iraqi insurgents (against us). Was I not Supposed to?

blatham wrote:
I hope they do capture the fellow. But the benefits gained are likely to be about the same as when Sadaam was found...cheerleaders waving pom poms madly, but the scoreboard unaffected in any real or substantial way.
Surely you recognize the symbolic significance of Saddam Hussein's capture? Do you think Iraq would be expecting 80% turnout next week if Saddam were still at large? We all hope they capture the fellow, but why do you feel a need to belittle or marginalize every potential sign of progress?

McTag: Rolling Eyes Do you watch F911 every night eagerly nodding and chattering along like it's the Rocky Horror Picture Show?

Gel: I knew there was a reason I read your constant bombardment of hyper-partisan hacks.
(Translation: Thank you very much for that story. It's a rare day that I see a truly human trait in any of our politicians… and it was very nice to see. Thanks again.)

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/artman/uploads/faulkner.jpg
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 09:54 am
Quote:
Surely you recognize the symbolic significance of Saddam Hussein's capture? Do you think Iraq would be expecting 80% turnout next week if Saddam were still at large? We all hope they capture the fellow, but why do you feel a need to belittle or marginalize every potential sign of progress?


bill

Because symbolic effect is impossible to measure. The insurgency has only grown since Sadaam was captured. More US soldiers are being killed now than before he was captured. That's measurable.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 10:20 am
Clever. Almost compelling... but almost completely non-responsive as well. You answered the first question, I suppose, but no one had asked you to measure anything. Belief in Christ can't be measured either but it would be foolish to deny His symbolic importance. You ducked the question of 80% expected turnout... and is that last obvious revelation about insurgency growing since it's birth supposed to be an answer to why you feel a need to belittle or marginalize every potential sign of progress? Actually, despite lacking in coherence, that's probably quite accurate...
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 11:28 am
McTag wrote:
We have had an interesting diversion through the worst excesses of the Boer War, the Sepoy Uprising and the Boxer Rebellion, but have skated over the fact that it is against international law and the US Constitution to attack another sovereign country.


McTag is wrong on both counts. Nothing in the U.S. Constitution prohibits war. Moreover the process through which we began both the Afghanistan and Iraqi interventions was fully in accord with the requirements of the Constitution. Similarly there is nothing in International law that prohibits what we have done. Some will raise the charter of the UN to which we are a signatory. However that document calls for a rejection only of aggressive war, and our actions were arguably not that. Finally the UN is a voluntary association without any powers not given by the sovereign nations which make it up. We can leave it at any time and I expect one day we will.

Possibly there is something in the air or water in Scotland that causes this disability. McTag imagines things that are not true and blithely makes comparisons of incomparable events. What he calls a diversion was instead an attempt to ground his fanciful excursions in some facts relating to the real history of the real world.

We had an acronym in the Navy for one who is wrong a lot, WEFT. McTag is WEFT.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 11:54 am
Well O'Bill you have encountered the classic Blatham rhetorical "out". He seizes on some peripheral detail or even a word in proposition or argument and argues that - never mind that it usually has little to do with the point in dispute -and announces (surprise!) that he has trumped the argument.

This is a much less effective rhetorical device than the classical Georgeob1 rhetorical "in", which is very cool.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 11:55 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Clever. Almost compelling... but almost completely non-responsive as well. You answered the first question, I suppose, but no one had asked you to measure anything. Belief in Christ can't be measured either but it would be foolish to deny His symbolic importance. You ducked the question of 80% expected turnout... and is that last obvious revelation about insurgency growing since it's birth supposed to be an answer to why you feel a need to belittle or marginalize every potential sign of progress? Actually, despite lacking in coherence, that's probably quite accurate...


billy

What response would be acceptable? You surmise some gain through symbolism, some significant gain it seems. I doubt it, and see no evidence for your optimism. If you are positing gain, then you are surely measuring something, however ethereal. Of course, I could just as well suggest that any 'gain' achieved is PR gain on the homefront. How would we know?

As to 80% turnout...projected by whom? To be measured by whom? Is it good that Iraqis, the ones still alive, get to vote? Sure. But that's a sliver of the whole picture. And I think the whole picture is a bloody stupid and dangerous mess. I like you bill, but I think you are in dreamland as regards both Iraq and your administration. So when you cheer for something where I see the cheering as a mistaken response, I'll write that.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 12:40 pm
Obill wrote:
Quote:
Joe(This is not Iowa, Nebraska and Kansas, Toto.)Nation I believe whole heartedly that Iran, Syria and the Saudis are on the same side with the Iraqi insurgents (against us). Was I not Supposed(sic) to?


The House of Saud would protest loudly your assertion that they are aligned in any way with 1)the insurgents, 2) either of the Nations listed and are hopeful for US success in Iraq. I know because I read the weekly newsletter the Embassy sends me every week. According to them they are rooting out the radical elements in their midst.

They are lying through their teeth, but mostly about their hopes for US success. They are most certainly not in favor of anything to do with Iran or any if the parties associated with Iran currently operating in Iraq. Success of any of those groups would put a Shia Islamic Republic on their northern border, nothing like having a nation controlled by apostates cheek by jowl with you to stir the emotions.

Syria will not be happy with a Shia controlled Iraqi government either. They may be permitting unauthorized contributions to cross their border but they are not doing anything overtly to aid the insurgents. What Syria wants is for something bad to happen to Israel.
They are working on that.

Iran, they of the newly emerging, Pakistani aided, nuclear arsenal, wants to give the USA a hug around the neck for doing what they have been trying to do for twenty years - remove Saddam and establish an Islamic Republic to their South - yea Great Satan! At this point they want the US backed elections to go forward and they feel sure that the Constitution, to be written in the next ten months, will reflect their moral values, oops, I mean their Islamic principles. Which btw will not be a plus for us in terms of securing either an end to their nuclear adventures or access to the major oil reserves in Iraq. yea, us.

So it's right to say they are all against us, (that's a big group anyway) but they all have completely different reasons and hopes for the outcome, none of which line up with the Bush Administration rosy prediction of a country reminiscent of Iowa, Nebraska and Kansas.

Please list here any country in the middle east which has the same view of the future as the Bush Administration.

Joe( Now that will be a short list.) Nation
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 12:53 pm
Laughing George
Laughing Blatham

Blatham, in your desire to cast a shadow over the whole affair; are you really now going to argue that capturing the Tyrant that spent the last 30 years suppressing dissention in Iraq with rape, murder and all manner of heinous oppression is irrelevant in terms of promoting their free will? Really? I like you too… quite a bit actually and respect your intelligence as well… which is why it strikes me as utterly preposterous when you suggest I have to prove that such an event has a positive effect on millions of people who will vote their will next week for the first time in their lives. Think it thru and concede this foolishness.

Deep down, you're as happy as I am for the Iraqis who've tasted freedom for the first time in public demonstrations and will now take the most important step of their lives towards securing that freedom for future generations. Sure it's only one step of many... but if you're an Iraqi, or Iraqi sympathizer, it's a friggin giant step for mankind!

Do it now… and then join us in the happy-dance. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/party/party-smiley-017.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/party/party-smiley-017.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/party/party-smiley-017.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/party/party-smiley-017.gifhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/party/party-smiley-017.gif

No one's claiming victory here. We're just excited for the possibilities and I think when you're not poking holes; you are too.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 01:10 pm
Joe, I would only take issue with your Iranian take. I don't think you're brief summary was long enough to include the fears of a possible successful transition in Iraq. Oil-> Money-> Greed-> selfishness -> Western thinking. With proper pushing, prodding and coaxing, we may very well get this elephant up the stairs...

I can't make that list because I can't really say anyone in the ME or anywhere else thinks Bush'll be completely successful... but damn it, we have to try man! Do you know what happens if we don't?...


...Nothing :sad:


Read my sig line again. Idea
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 02:35 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
[size=7]That al Qaeda declared war on Americans is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda, ican.
That Al Qaeda declared that American civilians and military must be killed wherever they can be found is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That Al Qaeda murdered American civilians is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That Al Qaeda murderers were trained in al Qaeda camps is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That Al Qaeda were encamped in Afghanistan and in Iraq prior to the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That US air attacks on Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan did not remove al Qaeda camps from Afghanistan is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
US ground and air attacks in Afghanistan DID NOT remove al Qaeda camps from Afghanistan. The al Qaeda leader, Osama bin Laden and his closest subordinates are probably still in the area. US ground and air attacks in Afghanistan are not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That Kurds defeated al Qaeda in northern Iraq by 1999 is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That Al Qaeda reformed in northern Iraq by 2001 is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That the US claims it requested that Saddam Hussein's regime extradite the leadership of the al Qaeda encamped in northern Iraq is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
Your claims that Saddam Hussein’s regime did not attempt to extradite the leadership of the al Qaeda encamped in northern Iraq are not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
Your claims that Saddam Hussein’s regime did not attempt to remove al Qaeda camps from northern Iraq are not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That the US invaded Iraq on the ground and in the air in 2003 is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
Your claims that the US removed al Qaeda camps in northern Iraq are unfounded. There are "al Qaeda" camps all over Iraq subsequent to our invasion and occupation thereof. Your claims that the US removed al Qaeda camps in northern Iraq are not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.

That the US's discovery and destruction of the al Qaeda encampment in northern Iraq is evidence that at the time of the US's invasion of Iraq 3/20/2003, the al Qaeda were encamped in northern Iraq is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That that in turn, plus the fact that Saddam Hussein NEVER claimed that the taQeinI (the al Qaeda encamped in northern Iraq) were NOT so encamped, plus the fact that Saddam NEVER claimed he tried to remove taQeinI, are evidence that Saddam did NOT attempt to remove taQeinI is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
Your allegation that that in turn is evidence that Saddam tolerated taQeinI is a leap of logic.
Your allegation that that in turn is evidence that Saddam harbored taQeinI is a leap of logic.
That YOU, ican, believe that in turn, plus the fact that the Kurds were NOT able to prevent the taQeinI from reforming by 2001 after the Kurds had defeated taQeinI by 1999, are evidence that a US invasion of Iraq was required to remove taQeinI is merely speculation on your part. Your speculation is not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda.
That YOU believe that in turn, plus the fact that air attacks in Afghanistan were insufficient for removing al Qaeda camps from Afghanistan, plus the fact that a US ground and air invasion was required to remove al Qaeda from Afghanistan, is evidence that the US had to invade Iraq on the ground and in the air in order to remove taQeinI from Iraq is merely speculation on your part. A US ground and air invasion has not removed al Qaeda from Afghanistan. Your speculations are predicated on erroneous assumptions. Your speculations are absolutely not evidence of Saddam's alleged harboring of al Qaeda, ican.[/size]


FACTS:
1. AL Qaeda declared war on Americans.
2. Al Qaeda declared that American civilians and military must be killed wherever they can be found.
3. Al Qaeda murdered American civilians.
4. Al Qaeda murderers were trained in al Qaeda camps.
5. Al Qaeda were encamped in Afghanistan and in Iraq prior to the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.
6. US air attacks on Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan did not remove al Qaeda camps from Afghanistan.
7. US ground attacks in Afghanistan did remove al Qaeda camps from Afghanistan.
8. Kurds defeated al Qaeda in northern Iraq by 1999.
9. Al Qaeda reformed in northern Iraq by 2001.
10. The US requested that Saddam Hussein's regime extradite the leadership of the al Qaeda encamped in northern Iraq.
11. Saddam Hussein’s regime did not attempt to extradite the leadership of the al Qaeda encamped in northern Iraq.
12. Saddam Hussein’s regime did not attempt to remove al Qaeda camps from northern Iraq.
13. The US invaded Iraq on the ground and in the air in 2003.
14. The US removed al Qaeda camps in northern Iraq.

ARGUMENT
The US's discovery and destruction of the al Qaeda encampment in northern Iraq is evidence that at the time of the US's invasion of Iraq 3/20/2003, the al Qaeda were encamped in northern Iraq;
That in turn, plus the fact that Saddam Hussein NEVER claimed that the taQeinI (i.e., the al Qaeda encamped in northern Iraq) were NOT so encamped, plus the fact that Saddam NEVER claimed he tried to remove taQeinI, are evidence that Saddam did NOT attempt to remove taQeinI;
That in turn is evidence that Saddam tolerated taQeinI;
That in turn is evidence that Saddam harbored taQeinI;
That in turn, plus the fact that the Kurds were NOT able to prevent the taQeinI from reforming by 2001 after the Kurds had defeated taQeinI by 1999, are evidence that a US invasion of Iraq was required to remove taQeinI;
That in turn, plus the fact that air attacks in Afghanistan were insufficient for removing al Qaeda camps from Afghanistan, plus the fact that a US ground and air invasion was required to remove al Qaeda from Afghanistan, is evidence that the US had to invade Iraq on the ground and in the air in order to remove taQeinI from Iraq.]
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 02:58 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
McTag wrote:
We have had an interesting diversion through the worst excesses of the Boer War, the Sepoy Uprising and the Boxer Rebellion, but have skated over the fact that it is against international law and the US Constitution to attack another sovereign country.


McTag is wrong on both counts. Nothing in the U.S. Constitution prohibits war. Moreover the process through which we began... (the) Iraqi interventions was fully in accord with the requirements of the Constitution.


Oh yes? I'm sure you know the Constitution better that I, but I'm pretty sure the President is not empowered to declare war unless there exists a real and present danger to the country. Which he said there was, but it turned out there wasn't.
Quote:
Similarly there is nothing in International law that prohibits what we have done.

Similar reply. You were attacked by a band composed principally of Saudi nationals, but this fact would not have entitled an attack on Saudi Arabia, never mind Iraq.
Quote:

Possibly there is something in the air or water in Scotland that causes this disability. McTag imagines things that are not true and blithely makes comparisons of incomparable events. What he calls a diversion was instead an attempt to ground his fanciful excursions in some facts relating to the real history of the real world.

It read to me very much like "Our occupation of this country is not as bad as what went on in these other countries under your armies" which is neither here not there and is a straw man not of my making.
Quote:

We had an acronym in the Navy for one who is wrong a lot, WEFT. McTag is WEFT.

Personal attacks are not a helpful development. You were quite nice and reasonable yesterday. Crying or Very sad Now you even speak of me in the third person.Rolling Eyes I must be getting through. Smile
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 03:20 pm
blatham wrote:
... As to 80% turnout...projected by whom? To be measured by whom? Is it good that Iraqis, the ones still alive, get to vote? Sure. But that's a sliver of the whole picture. And I think the whole picture is a bloody stupid and dangerous mess...

January 23rd:
Attention bushwhacker cannots!
There are now 14 million registered Iraqi voters.
Outstanding!
The total number of Iraqis voting will be more than

Corection! 12,930,655 or more than 92%
Astonishing!
After they vote, there will be more than
[/b]
Corection! 12,930,655
Iraqi Patrick Henrys.
Quote:
Patrick Henry: "It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry peace, peace!—but there is no peace. The war is actually begun. The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms. Our brethen are already in the field. Why stay we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me: give me liberty, or give me death!"

You can count on it!
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 03:50 pm
Quote:
I don't think you're brief summary was long enough to include the fears of a possible successful transition in Iraq. Oil-> Money-> Greed-> selfishness -> Western thinking.


I think it's nice of you to think that Western thinking is the result of greed and selfishness, I thought it was the other way around, but the chances of 10 million Shia turning to what, secular humanism?, is about the same as the entire population of LA turning to Buddhism, which believe me would not be a bad thing, but ain't ain't ain't going to happen.

Muslims love being Muslims, they love their lives and their heritage and their God and what radical Muslims, and not a few moderate Muslims, hate about us is not our freedom or our culture or Diet Coca Cola, it's how we have stuck it to them at every opportunity for the past six or seven hundred years (Oh, THAT's where you got that --Western Thinking leads to Greed and Selfishness-- idea. Yeah, well, you got that right.)

Add to that the last hundred years of colonialism in Indonesia, Malaya, India and Thailand, the partition of the Middle East after WWII, the backing of Israel's existence, the invasions of Lebanon (twice), and most recently, the debacle in East Timor, to say nothing about Iraq.

What am I leaving out? Oh yeah, we are fine with India having the bomb, but we had a cow when Pakistan blew one up. We are okay with Hindu separatists killing Muslims in Kashmir but yelp about terrorists if any dead guys are wearing Indian Army uniforms. We are seen by our actions to be hypocrites plain and simple and unfairly prejudiced against anyone who doesn't believe in our Heavenly Father. (and please remember that they think that government and religion are one thing, so that when Jerry Falwell spouts off, or Islam is called a dirty religion, they think it's our government speaking. Ask them if you think I'm wrong.)

So, do yourself a favor, and stop thinking that Muslims are anything like anything but Muslims. They aren't going to turn into Kansans anytime in the future no matter how hard we push the envelope or the elephant. (I did like that image though.)

==
Oh, and one more thing: it doesn't make any more difference than a fart in a cornfield if there were a couple hundred Islamic radicals freezing their asses off in Northern Iraq and Saddam knew or didn't know about them. The country was and is crawling with pissed off Islamic men of every stripe of Islam and they all have guns and think they are the next caliph. What we've given them by invading Iraq on the pretense of WMD is the chance to be the next Osama. Yea us. Anyway, so give it up on the harboring, did not harbor, crap. You're boring us to death.

Joe (another joeblow for reality) Nation
0 Replies
 
 

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