THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

As I said; I had hoped you'd retract your endorsement of this idiotic conclusion upon pondering it further. If you substitute John F. Kennedy in this scenario, the inherent idiocy of it becomes vividly clear. Your opinion of George Bush shouldn't interfere with, or even be considered when assessing this statement. Your knowledge of guys like Lee Harvey Oswald and John Wilkes Booth should prevent you from ever fostering such a poorly thought out opinion. Obviously, you can't set aside your dislike for George Bush long enough to recognize the falseness in your conclusion. That is what's sad McTag.

And as I illustrated; a justifiable assumption it isn't. :wink:

PLEASE.

Go watch this commercial that is currently airing in Iraq.

Like O'Bill's audio clip of the Iraqi woman (yes, everyone should hear it) this is extremely powerful and will inspire you.

"We are not alone.

We are not afraid."

Well I'll keep an open mind on this. George W likes to play the cowboy a lot, and often does ranching things like clearing brushwood for the cameras.

But the most dominant, most presidential thing a "Texan" president could do for the cameras is appear proudly mounted on a fine horse.

I may be climbing out on a limb a bit here, but have you ever seen him on horseback? Ever?

(he could use the excuse nowadays that a horseback position is not sufficiently bulletproof, and his security director forbids it, I suppose)

McTag - no, I've not seen a picture of the Shrub on a horse, but it's just not that important to me.

FYI, the ranches I visited in Montana and Wyoming this past summer didn't seem to rely on horseback riding as the preferred method of transportation. Most use the pickem-up truck and I just betcha I could even (gasp) find one or two that don't even own horses.

I'll keep an open mind, too, but I have to say I find it rather silly to focus on his lack of horsemanship skills as somehow being a major flaw.

Fifty years from now I'll be explaining to my grandchildren how it is that he came to be honored on Mt. Rushmore and I trust they won't care that he never sat on a horse, either

I said "on a par with", not "as big as". As far as the legal aspect of the crime, the plotting of an invasion of a sovereign country, the subsequent falsification of reasons for doing so, ignoring the wishes of the UN and world opinion, the bombing of civilian population, the destruction of towns and villages.

That is on a par with the unprovoked attacks on Poland and other countries in 1939. The difference is only one of scale.

He's afraid of horses.

Seriously.

Ah, a dude ranch with no horses. Right.

Your grandchildren will be asking you, may you live so long, what that leghorn is doing up on Mt Rushmore with all the presidents. :wink:

Ah, McTag, McTag.

We are living in truly interesting times and you are wanting to argue about ranches?

Look around you. History is being made as we speak! There is much cause for optimism as even the NYTimes CANNOT deny

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/international/middleeast/23mideast.html

Surely we can find much to focus on......let's not get lost in petty squables in the face of these real and important issues.

This was part of an impressive historical summary which I enjoyed reading.

The forces in Iraq, principally American, have a very difficult job to do and are different from the other occupations quoted for one reason: they were supposed to be welcomed, and liked and admired. Indeed some of them expected to be.

They still are trying to build bridges, metaphorically as well as literally, while trying to control guerrilla insurgency. A well-nigh impossible task. Other conquerors did not try it, they used unrestrained cruelty and brutality.

So while some are blowing up buildings, and calling in artillery and airstrikes, and shooting civilians at roadblocks by mistake, others are trying to win friends and rebuild infrastructure, while others arrange for an election.

Of restraint and discipline I'm sure there is plenty. But it's a crazy mixed-up situation. I hope it succeeds, for everyone's sake.

blatham, the piece I read in the NYTimes today indicated that this was a one-day effort to attempt to stop the looting of aid supplies at Camp Breakbasket. Nothing they had done seemed to work, so they conceived the idea of humiliating some of the looters in the hope they they would pass the word around and the looting would stop. The high level military spokesman who was being interviewed added that the worst part of the whole thing was that the looting got worse!

george, what is quite unusual about the shaming, humiliation, and power plays used at Abu Ghraid -- methods that have been used over the centuries, as you point out, to intimidate prisoners or captives -- was the sexual nature of the torture, a twist that is not common in the history of wartime torture. It may have happened before the age of photography, of course, and thus has gone undocumented.

Interesting theory about the similarity of method, blatham, and it does not seem unlikely that appealling methods of interrogation might be passed on at a high level. But I would think it more likely that rumor or word of mouth among the military would be the culprit here. I read this morning that the photos from the Brit group surfaced before the photos of Abu Ghraib. Has anyone else heard the same thing?

McTag,

I am impressed by your willingness to acknowledge elements of truth in arguments you don't generally accept. Makes me mindful of my own failings in that area. Forgive me if I have been a bit overbearing in argument. Perhaps you are Irish and therefore given to overstatement, just for the joy of it. (That's my excuse.)

McTag, you saved this liberal wing-nut from having to wade in and save you from the hostile savages. I commend you on your honest asessment and ob1 on recognizing it.

Interesting

You want to know what sucks about this ..... there were close to 66,000 law enforcement personel in charge of security for this shindig .... that is almost half the number of troops on duty in Iraq as we speak.
There is something drastically wrong with this picture!

You are gladly forgiven if there is anything to forgive. Just because I accept some of your arguments, does not mean I accept all of them or even the main thrust of them. Patriotism is fine, but can cover up other things best uncovered.

BTW not even in the worst vitriolic excesses of McGentrix and O'Bill have I ever been so insulted. Irish? Pah! :wink:

My job here is to hold up the mirror. It is up to others whether they wish to look in it or not.

Not Irish.
Clue: the people who gave you the Queen Mary, porridge, modern economics and, apparently also, the Ku Klux Klan

Strange facts in

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=603458

Thanks for the Independent piece, McTag.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 22, 2005
COURT-MARTIAL
British Major Say Looting Led to Abuse of Prisoners
By RICHARD BERNSTEIN

SNABRUCK, Germany, Jan. 21 - The abuse of Iraqi civilians by British soldiers at a base near Basra, which has riveted British public opinion and provoked widespread condemnation, arose out of an effort to stop persistent looting of relief supplies, the commanding officer of the accused soldiers said at a British court-martial hearing on Friday.

Testifying in the trial of three men accused of assaulting and sexually humiliating detained Iraqi civilians, the officer, Maj. Dan Taylor, described a desperate situation in which every other effort to stop the looting at Camp Bread Basket, near the southern city of Basra had failed, and local residents were telling the British troops simply to shoot them.

Major Taylor testified that he ordered his men to "round up as many men as we could, work them for an hour or so, and then release them," according to a report by the British Press Association.

When asked by a prosecutor why he gave the order, Major Taylor replied: "In an effort to stop looting that was rife within the Bread Basket camp, and there did not appear to be any other way we could prevent that looting, short of doing what the locals wanted us to do, which was shoot people. "I have to say what we did failed because, if anything, the looting got worse," he said.

But Major Taylor, pressed by a lawyer for one of the accused men, persistently denied that he had intended for any of his men to torment the Iraqi prisoners. He denied that he was responsible for their actions.

The case, being heard at a British military base in this town in western Germany, involves charges against Lance Cpl. Mark Cooley, 25, Cpl. Daniel Kenyon, 33, and Lance Cpl. Darren Larkin, 30, accused of assaulting and abusing Iraqi prisoners. One of the men, Corporal Larkin, has admitted to one charge of assaulting an Iraqi man, but all three defendants deny the main charges.

In earlier sessions, the military jury of seven British officers was shown photographs of abuse echoing similar images of abuse by American prison guards at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. The photographs in the British case show Iraqi soldiers naked and seemingly forced to perform simulated sex acts with one another while British soldiers pretend to punch and kick them.

All of the charges relate to events at a base known as Camp Bread Basket, near Basra, which was under the control of the First Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, commanded by Major Taylor. According to Major Taylor, looting was a problem, with Iraqi civilians, sometimes armed with knives or even hand grenades, pilfering aid supplies.

"Initially we chased looters off," said Major Taylor, sitting alone at the witness stand in his olive green uniform. "If the soldiers saw them, they chased them, and they would hop over the wall and run off.

"On the occasions we captured them," Major Taylor said, "we took them to a prisoner of war place in another of our locations." But that method proved to be ineffectual, he said, because the military police simply released the detained people on the grounds that they were not really prisoners of war.

So, Major Taylor said, he devised a different plan, code-named Operation Ali Baba, taken from the name given to looters by local people. On the day in question, May 15, 2003, some 22 Iraqis were taken into custody, forced to work for an hour or so cleaning up the camp, and then released. It was that day that the abuse took place.

Both the prosecution and the defense in the British case agreed Friday that the order to "work" the looting suspects was a clear violation of the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit an occupying power from forcing civilians to work without pay.

But the court learned that a British general who investigated the Camp Bread Basket incident had decided against bringing charges against Major Taylor. "I believe that you acted with well-meaning and sincere but misguided zeal," the officer, Brig. Gen Nick Carter, wrote in a letter to Major Taylor that was read out in court on Friday.

5 Danes to Stand Trial

COPENHAGEN, Jan. 21 (Reuters) - A Danish intelligence officer and four military police sergeants will be tried for abuse of Iraqi prisoners at a Danish camp in southern Iraq, the Danish Army said Friday.

Reserve Capt. Annemette Hommel and the four soldiers could face up to one year in prison if found guilty of breaking military law during interrogations last year.

Captain Hommel, 37, was sent home in July, before her tour of duty was up, after colleagues complained about the way she interrogated prisoners. She has denied the abuse.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company