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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 05:32 am
McTag - thank you. You see, I trust, that public officials have a duty to deal with those foreign leaders best suited to promoting the interests of their country whatever their personal views, and it so happens that at the time the US leaned towards supporting Iraq as a counterweight to Iran.

Arms manufacturers (mostly in Europe, btw) cheerfully sold to both parties - which reminds me of the tanks your own country sold to the Shah, with Chobham armor (at the time still not available to the British Army) i.e. weighing about 60 tons, which were promptly deployed on those marshes near the Iraqi border instantly becoming "stationary gun emplacements". I used to go and look at them in wonder.

One point I will ask you to observe in future: "allies" are those with whom we have a treaty of alliance. That's the NATO countries and the Defense Pact with Japan, nobody else. There was never any alliance with Saddam, as you seem to imply, and - parting shot here, as I won't be back online for a while - we're not the ones who came up with the phrase "The Great Game"!

About mistreatment of animals at least we're agreed - and I know that many Brits are doing everything in their power to improve the lot of animals in that whole region. Thank you.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 05:43 am
Quote:
About mistreatment of animals at least we're agreed - and I know that many Brits are doing everything in their power to improve the lot of animals in that whole region. Thank you.


Quote:
More Britons are said to have demonstrated over foxhunting that over any other issue, with the possible exception of the Iraq war.

Jane Kramer, The New Yorker, Jan 24/31 issue which just happens to be on my desk.

That really puts everything into perspective.


Joe(off to breakfast now)Nation
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 10:19 am
What makes rumsfield and others who are currently in the administration different than those in the UN that supported Saddam Hussien is the rhetoric that those in the administration uses when talking about saddam now rings hollow when they once supported him while he was doing the very same things.

Sometimes I just wonder if people leave their common sense out of political forums intentionally so it don't get in their way of their arguments.


I am glad that there are those who however undignified stood up in protest over George Bush. I draw the line at violent protesting but anything short of that no matter how petty I applaud in these disgusting times.

And before any comments gets made about how that makes me a blame america first or words similar, I still stand by it no matter what anyone thinks.

(I know that is a little immature, but it seems that at times we are driven to immaturity.)
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 10:43 am
revel wrote:
What makes rumsfield and others who are currently in the administration different than those in the UN that supported Saddam Hussien is the rhetoric that those in the administration uses when talking about saddam now rings hollow when they once supported him while he was doing the very same things.
Laughing That's a hoot coming from a U.N. apologist, Revel. Answer your own question; What's the difference? Hint: U.N. had authority since Iraq's surrender that Rummy didn't have. Idea But even if you ignore that FACT, how do you reconcile your lack of condemnation on the U.N. for a difference you can't cite? Laughing

revel wrote:
Sometimes I just wonder if people leave their common sense out of political forums intentionally so it don't get in their way of their arguments.
Shocked Re-read the first paragraphÂ… Laughing
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 11:33 am
Quote:
President George W. Bush: Inaugural Address, January 20, 2005.

Vice President Cheney, Mr. Chief Justice, President Carter, President Bush, President Clinton, reverend clergy, distinguished guests, fellow citizens:
On this day, prescribed by law and marked by ceremony, we celebrate the durable wisdom of our Constitution, and recall the deep commitments that unite our country. I am grateful for the honor of this hour, mindful of the consequential times in which we live, and determined to fulfill the oath that I have sworn and you have witnessed.

At this second gathering, our duties are defined not by the words I use, but by the history we have seen together. For a half century, America defended our own freedom by standing watch on distant borders. After the shipwreck of communism came years of relative quiet, years of repose, years of sabbatical - and then there came a day of fire.

We have seen our vulnerability - and we have seen its deepest source. For as long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny - prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder - violence will gather, and multiply in destructive power, and cross the most defended borders, and raise a mortal threat. There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human freedom.

We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world.

America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one. From the day of our Founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights, and dignity, and matchless value, because they bear the image of the Maker of Heaven and earth. Across the generations we have proclaimed the imperative of self-government, because no one is fit to be a master, and no one deserves to be a slave.

Advancing these ideals is the mission that created our Nation. It is the honorable achievement of our fathers. Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation's security, and the calling of our time.

So it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world.

This is not primarily the task of arms, though we will defend ourselves and our friends by force of arms when necessary. Freedom, by its nature, must be chosen, and defended by citizens, and sustained by the rule of law and the protection of minorities. And when the soul of a nation finally speaks, the institutions that arise may reflect customs and traditions very different from our own. America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal instead is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom, and make their own way.

The great objective of ending tyranny is the concentrated work of generations. The difficulty of the task is no excuse for avoiding it. America's influence is not unlimited, but fortunately for the oppressed, America's influence is considerable, and we will use it confidently in freedom's cause.

My most solemn duty is to protect this nation and its people against further attacks and emerging threats. Some have unwisely chosen to test America's resolve, and have found it firm.

We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation: The moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right. America will not pretend that jailed dissidents prefer their chains, or that women welcome humiliation and servitude, or that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies.

We will encourage reform in other governments by making clear that success in our relations will require the decent treatment of their own people. America's belief in human dignity will guide our policies, yet rights must be more than the grudging concessions of dictators; they are secured by free dissent and the participation of the governed. In the long run, there is no justice without freedom, and there can be no human rights without human liberty.

Some, I know, have questioned the global appeal of liberty - though this time in history, four decades defined by the swiftest advance of freedom ever seen, is an odd time for doubt. Americans, of all people, should never be surprised by the power of our ideals. Eventually, the call of freedom comes to every mind and every soul. We do not accept the existence of permanent tyranny because we do not accept the possibility of permanent slavery. Liberty will come to those who love it.

Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world:
All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: the United States will not ignore your oppression, or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you.

Democratic reformers facing repression, prison, or exile can know: America sees you for who you are: the future leaders of your free country.

The rulers of outlaw regimes can know that we still believe as Abraham Lincoln did: "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves; and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."

The leaders of governments with long habits of control need to know: To serve your people you must learn to trust them. Start on this journey of progress and justice, and America will walk at your side.

And all the allies of the United States can know: we honor your friendship, we rely on your counsel, and we depend on your help. Division among free nations is a primary goal of freedom's enemies. The concerted effort of free nations to promote democracy is a prelude to our enemies' defeat.

Today, I also speak anew to my fellow citizens:
From all of you, I have asked patience in the hard task of securing America, which you have granted in good measure. Our country has accepted obligations that are difficult to fulfill, and would be dishonorable to abandon. Yet because we have acted in the great liberating tradition of this nation, tens of millions have achieved their freedom. And as hope kindles hope, millions more will find it. By our efforts, we have lit a fire as well - a fire in the minds of men. It warms those who feel its power, it burns those who fight its progress, and one day this untamed fire of freedom will reach the darkest corners of our world.

A few Americans have accepted the hardest duties in this cause - in the quiet work of intelligence and diplomacy ... the idealistic work of helping raise up free governments ... the dangerous and necessary work of fighting our enemies. Some have shown their devotion to our country in deaths that honored their whole lives - and we will always honor their names and their sacrifice.

All Americans have witnessed this idealism, and some for the first time. I ask our youngest citizens to believe the evidence of your eyes. You have seen duty and allegiance in the determined faces of our soldiers. You have seen that life is fragile, and evil is real, and courage triumphs. Make the choice to serve in a cause larger than your wants, larger than yourself - and in your days you will add not just to the wealth of our country, but to its character.

America has need of idealism and courage, because we have essential work at home - the unfinished work of American freedom. In a world moving toward liberty, we are determined to show the meaning and promise of liberty.

In America's ideal of freedom, citizens find the dignity and security of economic independence, instead of laboring on the edge of subsistence. This is the broader definition of liberty that motivated the Homestead Act, the Social Security Act, and the G.I. Bill of Rights. And now we will extend this vision by reforming great institutions to serve the needs of our time. To give every American a stake in the promise and future of our country, we will bring the highest standards to our schools, and build an ownership society. We will widen the ownership of homes and businesses, retirement savings and health insurance - preparing our people for the challenges of life in a free society. By making every citizen an agent of his or her own destiny, we will give our fellow Americans greater freedom from want and fear, and make our society more prosperous and just and equal.

In America's ideal of freedom, the public interest depends on private character - on integrity, and tolerance toward others, and the rule of conscience in our own lives. Self-government relies, in the end, on the governing of the self. That edifice of character is built in families, supported by communities with standards, and sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran, and the varied faiths of our people. Americans move forward in every generation by reaffirming all that is good and true that came before - ideals of justice and conduct that are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

In America's ideal of freedom, the exercise of rights is ennobled by service, and mercy, and a heart for the weak. Liberty for all does not mean independence from one another. Our nation relies on men and women who look after a neighbor and surround the lost with love. Americans, at our best, value the life we see in one another, and must always remember that even the unwanted have worth. And our country must abandon all the habits of racism, because we cannot carry the message of freedom and the baggage of bigotry at the same time.

From the perspective of a single day, including this day of dedication, the issues and questions before our country are many. From the viewpoint of centuries, the questions that come to us are narrowed and few. Did our generation advance the cause of freedom? And did our character bring credit to that cause?

These questions that judge us also unite us, because Americans of every party and background, Americans by choice and by birth, are bound to one another in the cause of freedom. We have known divisions, which must be healed to move forward in great purposes - and I will strive in good faith to heal them. Yet those divisions do not define America. We felt the unity and fellowship of our nation when freedom came under attack, and our response came like a single hand over a single heart. And we can feel that same unity and pride whenever America acts for good, and the victims of disaster are given hope, and the unjust encounter justice, and the captives are set free.

We go forward with complete confidence in the eventual triumph of freedom. Not because history runs on the wheels of inevitability; it is human choices that move events. Not because we consider ourselves a chosen nation; God moves and chooses as He wills. We have confidence because freedom is the permanent hope of mankind, the hunger in dark places, the longing of the soul. When our Founders declared a new order of the ages; when soldiers died in wave upon wave for a union based on liberty; when citizens marched in peaceful outrage under the banner "Freedom Now" - they were acting on an ancient hope that is meant to be fulfilled. History has an ebb and flow of justice, but history also has a visible direction, set by liberty and the Author of Liberty.

When the Declaration of Independence was first read in public and the Liberty Bell was sounded in celebration, a witness said, "It rang as if it meant something." In our time it means something still. America, in this young century, proclaims liberty throughout all the world, and to all the inhabitants thereof. Renewed in our strength - tested, but not weary - we are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom.

May God bless you, and may He watch over the United States of America.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 11:36 am
ATTENTION BUSHWHACKER CANNOTS

NOTE that this story was BURIED on PAGE 13!

NOTE that NUMBER: EIGHTY (80) PERCENT !
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MOST IRAQIS REMAIN COMMITTED TO ELECTIONS, POLL SAYS

Despite Insurgent Threats and Lack of Democratic Tradition, 80 Percent Say They Are Likely to Vote

By Karl Vick
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 21, 2005; Page A13

BAGHDAD, Jan. 20 -- An overwhelming majority of Iraqis continue to say they intend to vote on Jan. 30 even as insurgents press attacks aimed at rendering the elections a failure, according to a new public opinion survey.

The poll, conducted in late December and early January for the International Republican Institute, found 80 percent of respondents saying they were likely to vote, a rate that has held roughly steady for months

The 64 percent who said they were "very likely" to vote represented a dip of about 7 percentage points from a November survey, while those "somewhat likely" to vote increased 5 points.

Western specialists involved with election preparations said they were struck by the determination and resilience of ordinary Iraqis as they anticipate their country's first free election in half a century.

"Despite the efforts of the terrorists, Iraqis remain committed to casting their vote on election day," IRI President Lorne Craner said in a statement. The organization, which is funded by Congress through the National Endowment for Democracy and the U.S. Agency for International Development, commissioned the poll, which surveyed 1,900 Iraqis in all but two of the country's 18 provinces. Poor security made two in the far north, Nineveh and Dohuk, inaccessible. The margin of error was plus or minus 3 percentage points.

"I think people will be shocked," said an official of another international organization deeply involved in preparing Iraq's nascent political class for the ballot. The official, who insisted that neither he nor his organization could be identified because of security concerns, said most Iraqis remained intent on exercising their right to elect a government after decades of dictatorships.

"I think the real story of this election is what's gone on beneath the radar," the official said. "They may not know what they're voting for. But I think they recognize it's something called democracy."

The new survey was released on a relatively quiet day in Iraq, the start of a four-day religious holiday marking the end of the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. Streets were largely empty, and attacks appeared to be down sharply from Wednesday, when insurgents mounted more than 100 across the country, including 10 car bombings.

In the southern city of Basra, however, an explosion at the entrance to a British military base injured several people, including British soldiers, according to a statement by the British military.

A group led by Abu Musab Zarqawi posted an Internet message saying the attack was "in response to the harm inflicted by British occupation forces on our brothers in prison." Three British soldiers are accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners in a scandal that recalls the Abu Ghraib case, including photos of naked prisoners being forced to simulate sex.

Another guerrilla group, the Ansar al-Sunna Army, asserted responsibility for an attack on two cars carrying a Western security detail near Baiji, an oil town in the north, on Wednesday. A British man and an Iraqi driver were killed in the attack, and a Brazilian man is missing. The group claimed to be holding a Briton and a Swede.

Mohammed Mutar, a laborer who said he witnessed the attack, said the attackers pretended to be waiting in a long line at a gas station before attacking the two-car convoy. Lt. Col. Safa Majoun, who heads the security detail at the Baiji power plant, said two men were kidnapped, including the head of the company that runs the plant. Nazar Jabbar, a driver, said he and the company's other drivers immediately resigned.

In Anbar province, a vast and predominantly Sunni stretch of western Iraq that includes Fallujah and Ramadi, Zarqawi's group this week distributed fliers warning that anyone seen in public from Jan. 27 on would be regarded as "a military target."
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 11:42 am
TRANSLATION OF ICAN'S POST ABOVE:

DICTATORS NEITHER DESERVE, NOR WILL THEY RECEIVE, OUR SUPPORT.

IRANIANS, AND ALL WHO YEARN TO BE FREE, WE ARE WITH YOU.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 12:17 pm
JustWonders wrote:
TRANSLATION OF ICAN'S POST ABOVE:

DICTATORS NEITHER DESERVE, NOR WILL THEY RECEIVE, OUR SUPPORT.

IRANIANS, AND ALL WHO YEARN TO BE FREE, WE ARE WITH YOU.


Quote:
President George W. Bush: Inaugural Address, January 20, 2005.

[boldface emphasis added by me]
...
We have seen our vulnerability - and we have seen its deepest source. For as long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny - prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder - violence will gather, and multiply in destructive power, and cross the most defended borders, and raise a mortal threat. There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human freedom.

We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world.

America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one. From the day of our Founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights, and dignity, and matchless value, because they bear the image of the Maker of Heaven and earth. Across the generations we have proclaimed the imperative of self-government, because no one is fit to be a master, and no one deserves to be a slave.

Advancing these ideals is the mission that created our Nation. It is the honorable achievement of our fathers. Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation's security, and the calling of our time.

So it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world.

This is not primarily the task of arms, though we will defend ourselves and our friends by force of arms when necessary. Freedom, by its nature, must be chosen, and defended by citizens, and sustained by the rule of law and the protection of minorities. And when the soul of a nation finally speaks, the institutions that arise may reflect customs and traditions very different from our own. America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal instead is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom, and make their own way.

...

Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world:
All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: the United States will not ignore your oppression, or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you.


...


Yea, Verily!
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 12:27 pm
I've criticized Bush and I've lauded him. I've criticized our unpreparedness in Iraq and I've wished fervently for success with the elections. But the shrill duo above me have made me realize that the political forums on A2K are not for discussions...they're for dissemination.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 12:37 pm
panzade wrote:
I've criticized Bush and I've lauded him. I've criticized our unpreparedness in Iraq and I've wished fervently for success with the elections. But the shrill duo above me have made me realize that the political forums on A2K are not for discussions...they're for dissemination.

You mistake the declaration of hypotheses for political dissemination. You might more productively proceed by challenging those hypotheses that you wish to challenge. I for one will respond appropriately. I guarantee it!
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 12:55 pm
Ican - pay no attention to him - I don't Smile

Here's another line I particularly like (with long-term policy implications, methinks)..........

"We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation: The moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right. America will not pretend that jailed dissidents prefer their chains, or that women welcome humiliation and servitude, or that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies. "
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 01:07 pm
What gets me is that every time George Bush says something like the above he gets an expression on his face that says 'Damn, did I just say that?'

Joe( Even he doesn't believe everything he says, only his sheeple do) Nation
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 01:45 pm
panzade wrote:
I've criticized Bush and I've lauded him. I've criticized our unpreparedness in Iraq and I've wished fervently for success with the elections. But the shrill duo above me have made me realize that the political forums on A2K are not for discussions...they're for dissemination.


Sorry Panzade, but the left side of this forum is far shriller, far more numerous, and more full of "it" to believe that it has taken you until now to realize this.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 02:11 pm
Love that find JW... and can't help but agree with and second (or third I guess) this sentiment:

"I think the real story of this election is what's gone on beneath the radar," the official said. "They may not know what they're voting for. But I think they recognize it's something called democracy."

80% turnout Shocked would show a greater desire to be included in the democratic process than I've ever seen in my own country. Idea I can't believe some people will still insist that the Iraqis don't want it. Confused I wish I could make you all listen to the woman referred to in my signature line and then imagine her thoughts about 80% of Iraq turning out for a free election. Smile My vision's blurring just considering it. SmileCrying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 02:17 pm
I don't know how you've convinced yourself that some people are insisting the Iraqis don't want democracy...of course they do. The want it with autonomy, and they're not going to get it.
If you think that USA has invaded Iraq just to depose a dictator and leave behind a democracy, you are delusional.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 02:36 pm
What then do you believe they will get? Do you believe the Iraqis will be worse off than they were under Saddam?

How are you doing on the history of these issues and their origins in the 1914-1920 period, at the hands of Britain and France?

What did Britain leave behind in Iraq and Palestine after their occupation? France in Syria and Lebanon?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 02:43 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
McTag,

What I am saying is the British and the French did a lot of bad stuff that created PRECISELY the problems we are dealing with now in Iraq and the Middle East.

You may wish to refresh yourself on the Sykes-Piqot treaty of 1915, a secret treaty in which the British and the French agreed on the division of the spoils of the Ottoman Empire after the presumed success of their imbecilic enterprise in Gallipoli and the ultimately successful one in Mesopotamia. Neither party saw fit to inform the United States of this treaty when we foolishly entered the war. Within months of the infusion of 800,000 U.S. troops into the butcher shop that was the western front, France and Britain had INCREASED their troop levels in the Middle East by over 500,000.

You may then wish to read up a bit on the actions of Lloyd George and Georges Clemenceau in attempting to (1) implement this treaty, and (2) short-change each other during the pre Versailles negotiations in 1919. While you are at it don't forget to note the conflicting solemn commitments made by the British to the Zionists and the Hashemite Arab leaders before and after this infamous treaty. You can wrap it all up with a quick review of the French actions in Lebanon and Syria before and after WWII and the British actions in Iraq during the 1920s and of course their noble oversight of the Palestinian mandate.


Still unanswered. Sixty years ago most of the Moslems in the world lived under the rule of either Britain or France. Nice legacy they left.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 02:49 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
What then do you believe they will get? Do you believe the Iraqis will be worse off than they were under Saddam?

How are you doing on the history of these issues and their origins in the 1914-1920 period?


Hi George, good evening. The Iraquis, those who survive, will be better off than under Saddam, and in five years of so with reasonable luck and a fair wind the country will be back to where it was thirty years ago.

I am aware of the misdeeds of the colonial powers (Britain and France) in the period you mention and of the fact that most of the troubles of this tortured country (cobbled together by the British from a few disparate factions) can be traced back to that time.

I am remembering, as a historical note, that Winston Churchill came up with the plan of sending planes with poison gas to bomb the Kurds. Colonialists always seem to do hateful things. And people who fail to learn the lessons of the past seem fated to repeat them.

Is any price worth paying, with the oil as a prize? Shall we sell our souls again? Dressed up with fine-sounding speeches about freedom, liberty and democracy now, but it's the same story.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 02:55 pm
Don't go on about the "still unanswered" stuff like Bill does. I am in a different time zone and some other things get in the way of my A2K activity sometimes.

In 5 minutes or at 21:00 hrs here I am going to watch a TV programme about some excellent quality film which has been unearthed, dating back to 1900-1910.
The footage shown last Friday was marvellous, so am looking forward to tonight's presentation.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2005 03:03 pm
Like Bill did, damn it, not does. I haven't badgered you since (I now patiently await your feeble responses).:razz:
0 Replies
 
 

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