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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 08:51 am
Lash wrote:
Ge--

Let's see...

Gonzales defines 'torture as interogation falling just short of organ failure or death ....
----------
Does he give any clearer parameters? I agree, of course, that it stops short of death. Does he say where it starts?

Some biblical quote about suffering a fool ......
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 09:03 am
The front page of the NY Daily News had a picture of Army Spec. Charles A. Graner and read:

Guilty
Soldier who
shamed
America.
I think a more appropriate Front page would have been a picture of
Bush and a caption that read "Guilty president who shamed America.[/size]
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 09:06 am
..."suffering a fool..."
I agree that should be considered torture, and egregious torture when the fool is an elitist know it all who applies a different set of standards to suit his purposes--but for the sake of what Gonzales said--

If you want someone to give an answer to a question--the question must be complete. If I take only the wording you use in your question--my answer is yes.

You don't carelessly answer such questions-- Do you expect me to? I've looked around briefly for the wording used by Gonzales. I haven't found it. If you can provide it--and want an honest answer to your question--I'll be glad to comply.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 09:14 am
Quote:
Post-Saddam Iraq has become "a magnet for international terrorist activity," said Robert Hutchings, director of the National Intelligence Council, the official research arm of the entire US intelligence community, as he presented Mapping the Global Future, the NIC's latest report on long-term global trends.

The NIC warning is the second repudiation within a week of the Bush administration's rationale for the war. Two days ago, the White House quietly signalled it had ended the search for Saddam's non-existent weapons of mass destruction.

Since then - and especially during his 2004 re-election campaign - the President has portrayed Iraq as a key part of the global war on terror and insisted the US has been made safer by the overthrow of Saddam.

But these claims have been demolished by the NIC. According to David Low, a senior NIC official, Iraq has been transformed into "a training and recruitment ground, and an opportunity [for terrorists] to enhance their technical skills".

The likelihood now - even in the best case scenario where the upcoming Iraqi elections restore some stability to the country - is that foreign terrorists currently operating there will "go home, wherever home is", and disperse across the world as new threats to the US.

Implicitly, the report also debunks the assertions of Mr Bush and Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, that Saddam had close and active links with al-Qa'ida. Instead, it says, radical Islamic terrorists only moved in amid the post-war chaos. As the report notes, the al-Qa'ida generation that trained in Afghanistan will dissipate, "to be replaced in part by survivors of the conflict in Iraq".

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=601098
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 09:20 am
Troll on by lash.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 09:21 am
blatham
Nothing new or earth shaking. That same analysis has been expressed by many on this forum time and time again.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 09:24 am
That's one way to step away from a losing argument. Not a very respectable one, however, geligesti.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 11:22 am
From earlier, a moment of real clarity:

Quote:
My first inclination is the need to believe that a 'President' would never lie to the people he/she serves.... second would be that they (Americans) are too damn lazy to search out the truth ..... next would be apathy .. ie the 50% that do not vote.


This is absolutely right, both parts. My mother is a great example. She just doesn't accept the fact that the Pres. may not have the best interests of the country in mind. It's like she can't concieve of a president lying to the American people; and this is a woman who lived through Nixon and Iran-Contra!

To compound problems, she doesn't trust the internet as a news source; so it's difficult to present her with alternatives to the mainstream, which doesn't exactly give the real stories about what's going on anymore.

There are millions just like her, blindly supporting the president...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 11:44 am
Cyclo - what source(s) do you rely on primarily for accurate news coverage on the war, more precisely, what's going on in Iraq?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 12:10 pm
Quote:
She just doesn't accept the fact that the Pres. may not have the best interests of the country in mind. It's like she can't concieve of a president lying to the American people


Cyclop,

I'm quite sure that the Prez THINKS he has the best interests of the country in mind and is acting in those interests. I don't think he sees himself as "lying" to the public. He would probably justify any fudging of the truth as being in the greater interest of his vision for this country and its mission in the world. I can be sympathetic to this viewpoint to a certain degree. Who among us has not been untruthful, either shading the facts or withholding information, when we saw such deception as serving a greater good?

You might say that is okay for an ordinary person but the prez ought be held to a higher standard. Perhaps so. But the stakes are higher for a president, and the "greater good" is larger and more panoramic. I think Bush let his vision become arrogant and hubristic, and he has convinced himself (perhaps because he is surrounded by sycophants, as most very powerful people are) that he is right and need not listen to the voices of doubt or dissent.

I would have so much more respect for him if he would admit that he had made a mistake about WMD's and about the "immanent threat" and about the stated reasons for going to war, apologize, and move on to try to clear up the mess that has been created. (His apology about saying "bring it on" was laughable. The word "blunt" that he used to decribe his comment usually means straightforward and to the point. He is trying to put a gloss on a really bad comment.)

Also, he or the Secy of State could publicly denounce the kingdom of Saudi Arabia for the lashings they are carrying out on men and women who dared stage a demonstration for reform of the regime. How could we trash Iraq to rid the world of a despot and have left so many others in power, with our tacit or open support because they serve our geo-political needs at the moment?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 12:10 pm
full text of Gonzales memo:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999148/site/newsweek/

just an interesting aritcle though I really don't understand anything underneath the war crimes part.

http://www.discourse.net/archives/2004/05/alberto_gonzales_memo_paving_the_way_for_war_crimes.html

May 19, 2004
Alberto Gonzales Memo: Paving the Way for War Crimes?
MSNBC has the full text of the memo by White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales. Aside from its fundamental callousness and lack of moral outrage, there are odd things about it.

Gonzales rejects, without discussion, the concept that if armed people are not entitled to POW status they might still benefit from Geneva III, protecting civilians. Or might be subject to basic norms of decency and due process arising from the Constitution which creates the powers he and his boss exercise.

Even stranger is the odd discussion of the War Crimes statute, 18 U.S.C ยง 2441. Gonzales opines that one good reason for NOT treating detainees as POWs is that not giving them POW status lessens the chance of subsequent prosecutions against their US captors under the war crimes statute.

Why, you might ask, worry about prosecution at all? Is Gonzales aware of a plan to mistreat the detainees? It sure looks that way.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 12:31 pm
Thanks, revel.

Wanted to pause in reading the memo to say how disgusted I am yet again at partisans who lie outright or subvert the truth about what someone says to smear them.

What Gonzales deemed as "quaint" was the Geneva Convention rules about affording POWs "commisary priviledges, athletic uniforms, advanced military pay while detained."

Quaint doesn't even begin to describe how stupid those Geneva tenets are concerning Al Quaida and the Taliban.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 12:44 pm
I didn't see anything about Gonzales stating what constituted torture in that memo.

I did, however, see this.

"A determination that GPW (the Geneva Convention) does not apply to AQ ot the Taliban could undermine US military culture, which emphasizes maintaining the highest standards of conduct in combat and could introduce an element of uncertainty in the status of adversaries."

It was one of his concerns--not his plan.

Sheesh.

They are mainly talking about avoiding frivolous lawsuits by members of AQ and the Taliban..
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 12:48 pm
How many Democratic senators have spoken out against Gonzalez' nomination?

Anyone?

Any idea why?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 01:11 pm
Due to security concerns surrounding the upcoming January 30 elections, authorities in Iraq have agreed to let voters register and cast ballots on the same day in the troubled provinces of Anbar and Ninawa. The two provinces, home to the cities of Fallujah and Mosul, have experienced numerous clashes between insurgents and US forces and questions have been raised as to whether voting would proceed there; earlier this week members of the local election commission in Anbar resigned en masse and went into hiding. The chairman of the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq, Abdul-Hussein Hendawi, said he expected a preliminary vote count late on January 30 with a final vote tally available within ten days.

Quote:
Iraq unveils election day security precautions


Source
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 02:04 pm
Revel, do a clusty on gonzales ..... more info tthan you need
lash is refering to the 1st memo to Bush
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 02:17 pm
Gelisgesti

You must of saw my post before I deleted it.

I am just finding my way around the search stuff, most of the time it is more frustrating for me than it is worth.

Does the geneva convention really have that in there about providing athletic wear for pow's? If you saw my post you saw the url to the geneva convention that I read and I didn't see anything about that in there.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 02:20 pm
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050115/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_graner_21

Quote:
Graner, the suspected ringleader of the abuse, described himself as a by-the-book prison guard corrupted by superiors who ordered him to physically mistreat and sexually humiliate detainees.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 02:59 pm
Lash wrote:
Ge--

Let's see...

Gonzales defines 'torture as interogation falling just short of organ failure or death ....
----------
Does he give any clearer parameters? I agree, of course, that it stops short of death. Does he say where it starts?


"interrogation" is verbal. Only.
"organ failure" is physical
"death" of a captive, is murder

I think a person who can spell such a long word as Gonzales should be able to understand that. It is an indictment, yet another indictment, of the Bush administration that it is willing to be associated with such a person.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2005 03:00 pm
revel wrote:
Gelisgesti

You must of saw my post before I deleted it.

I am just finding my way around the search stuff, most of the time it is more frustrating for me than it is worth.

Does the geneva convention really have that in there about providing athletic wear for pow's? If you saw my post you saw the url to the geneva convention that I read and I didn't see anything about that in there.


The copy I read (1st copy before rewriten) was zeroxed and hard to read. L do recall something to that order heard on c-span maybe ...
0 Replies
 
 

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