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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 07:17 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Can anybody be so sure that there are so many more wimps in Iraq than are in the United States?


Isn't all the pessimism we're hearing on this board reminiscent of what they were saying about Afghanistan? It's now an emerging democracy.

They were wrong and the optimists were right..


Oh really .... doing all that well huh?

Quote:

World - Canadian Press
Yahoo! News
Afghan government weighing amnesty for wealthy drug traffickers

Sun Jan 9, 9:17 PM ET


STEPHEN GRAHAM

KABUL (AP) - Afghan leaders are considering offering amnesty to drug smugglers who get out of the country's booming narcotics industry and invest their profits in national reconstruction, senior officials told The Associated Press.



The proposed amnesty could blunt a U.S.-sponsored crackdown on traffickers and opium poppy farmers and raises tough ethical questions for a government also seeking reconciliation with followers of the ousted Taliban regime.

Under pressure from the United States and Europe, President Hamid Karzai has declared a "holy war" against the narcotics trade, which has grown rapidly since the Taliban fell three years ago after a U.S.-led invasion. Karzai has said it is his top priority during the five-year term he won in landmark September elections.

On Sunday, Karzai's office would not say whether an amnesty was being discussed. But two senior officials told The AP that debate on the proposal had begun.

Karzai was "considering the issue," said Haneef Atmar, his rural development minister. "He finds it extremely difficult to bring any kind of amnesty for these people. But as a very responsible leader, he is always looking at all policy options."

Atmar, whose ministry will handle a chunk of the foreign money flowing into anti-drug programs, said the government would have to discuss the ethical issues together with its key foreign backers - the United States, Britain and the European Union (news - web sites) - as well as with the Afghan people.

"Can you give amnesty to those people that have made their wealth out of the miseries of Afghans and the youth of the West?" Atmar said. "It's not a government policy yet. It's a debate that has been opened."

Diplomats in Kabul said an amnesty could weaken a group using their wealth to subvert Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s democratic rebirth.

The United Nations (news - web sites) recently warned that Afghanistan is in danger of becoming a "narco-state." A UN survey estimated that poppy cultivation jumped two-thirds last year and supplied 87 per cent of the world's opium, the raw material for heroin. It valued the trade at $3.4 billion Cdn, or more than 60 per cent of Afghanistan's 2003 gross domestic product.

Officials say they face a powerful cross-border network of drug producers, smugglers and corrupt officials and that regional warlords and militant groups, including the Taliban, take a cut of the massive profits.

Afghan and foreign officials are drawing up plans to eradicate crops and train police to smash laboratories and arrest top smugglers.

In interviews during the past week, key officials insisted that offering conditional amnesty to major traffickers would help that drive by allowing the country's fledgling security forces to focus on recalcitrant suppliers and free up more resources to rebuild an economy shattered by a quarter-century of war.

"We would ask them to join the government and use their influence and capital to help eliminate poppies and to support the economy," said Lt.-Gen. Mohammed Daoud, deputy interior minister for counternarcotics.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 07:32 pm
Ge, thanks for the Robert Fisk piece.

He has a new book coming out in May: The Great War for Civilisation.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 07:39 pm
You beat me to the punch, geli....

Quote:
Isn't all the pessimism we're hearing on this board reminiscent of what they were saying about Afghanistan? It's now an emerging democracy.


Afghanistan may turn out to be a bigger mistake, if that is possible, than Iraq. By bringing the Northern Alliance, a battered, defeated bunch of squabblers if there ever was one, (defeated by the way by the Taleban, I mean the Northern Alliance was a whipped dog before we pumped it up) into power with it's legions of tajiks and shoving in the faces of the pashtun we have done nothing but lay a nice fire with lots of tinder.

The pics from Kabul may be bright, but outside of that city the nation ( I would really like not to use that word to describe such a fractured wounded country, but.... ) is torn between the re-armed Taleban and the various old-term warlords.

Some one keeps making it sound as if Afghanistan is like some drier version of Nebraska or Oklahoma. Tain't even close. The people of Afghanistan know as much about democracy as they do about launching rockets to Mars.

Joe (we have two robots on Mars, they don't have paved roads.)Nation
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 08:09 pm
Your point is well taken, Joe, but please note I said "emerging" democracy.

No one predicted "easy" and no one predicted "over night" results.

I suspect the people of Afghanistan, having been denied a normal, decent, human life for decades realize this as well.

I think we'll see favorable results within the next 5 to 10 years. Patience.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 08:10 pm
Kara, welcome .....he (Fisk) does deliver, you don't realize how much he says til you chew it a bit...

Joe, it's the early bird that gets the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese .... don't know if or how that's pertinet here ..... just thought I'd say it Smile
I remember Cheney's words on or about 9/11 'Afghanistan??? But .... there's nothing to bomb there.'
Dosen't leave much to say.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 09:24 pm
Fisk has been known to eat fromunda cheese. Especially after writting many of his more poignant articles.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2005 10:17 pm
Come on, you made that up didn't you?
I thought so ...
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:26 am
Did the White House Confirm It's Considering Using "Death Squads" in Iraq?
It was an odd moment of White House spin--or lack of spin.

On Monday, CNN's Wolf Blitzer was interviewing Sean McCormack, a White House special assistant who handles national security matters. They discussed the Palestinian and Iraqi elections. McCormack cheerfully noted that in 14 of Iraq's 18 provinces there should be no problem with voting on January 30. He neglected to mention that the four troubled provinces in Iraq are home to about one-half of the nation's population. And as the interview was coming to a close, Blitzer said,

One final question, Sean, before I let you go. This Newsweek story saying the Pentagon is considering this so-called Salvador option to train Kurdish and Shiite fighters in Iraq to go ahead and kidnap, snatch, kill, Iraqi insurgents. You've seen the story. I wonder what the White House reaction is to it.

Blitzer was referring to a piece by Michael Hirsch and John Barry reporting that Pentagon officials worried about the deepening quagmire in Iraq were considering "the Salvador option." The article quoted a senior military officer saying, "What everyone agrees is that we can't just go on as we are. We have to find a way to take the offensive against the insurgents. Right now, we are playing defense. And we are losing." And the article noted,

Last November's operation in Fallujah, most analysts agree, succeeded less in breaking "the back" of the insurgency--as Marine Gen. John Sattler optimistically declared at the time--than in spreading it out. Now, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration's battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers....

Following that model, one Pentagon proposal would send Special Forces teams to advise, support and possibly train Iraqi squads, most likely hand-picked Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers, even across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions. It remains unclear, however, whether this would be a policy of assassination or so-called "snatch" operations, in which the targets are sent to secret facilities for interrogation. The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries, officials tell NEWSWEEK

This is a rather important development--or potential development. Conservatives hail US actions in El Salvador in the 1980s, but the Reagan Administration supported a military there that was tied to death squads and that massacred hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians and noncombatants. For instance, the US-backed El Salvador military massacred about 800 peasants (including many women and children) at El Mozote. At the time, the Reagan administration--notably Reagan aide Elliott Abrams--denied the massacre had happened. It is now indisputable that this horrible event did occur, and Abrams today is a National Security Council aide for George W. Bush.

Is the Pentagon truly considering unleashing paramilitary forces in Iraq? The lesson from El Salvador is that such outfits are not always controllable. They kill whom they want to kill. (In El Salvador that included an archbishop who cared about human rights and American nuns doing volunteer work.) They develop their own agendas and their own vendettas. During the civil war in Lebanon in the 1980s, militias supported by the Israelis slaughtered Palestinian civilians at refugee camps. This is a perilous path to pursue. Trying to achieve democracy through death squads does, to say the least, seem counterintuitive.

So Blitzer was right to call attention to the Newsweek article and the "Salvador option" debate. Viewers could have reasonably expected McCormack to have prepared a response for any inquiry about this important story. But here is what McCormack said:

Well, we're working very closely with the Iraqi government [and] the multinational force in fighting the former regime elements and the terrorists that are in Iraq. But as for that particular story, Wolf, I'm afraid I don't have any information for you.

No information? That was no denial. You will notice that McCormack did not say, "It's ridiculous to suggest that we would work with death squads and freelancing paramilitaries." Nor did he say, "The president is concerned about any reports indicating the Pentagon may be considering supporting death squads or paramilitary units in Iraq, and we're looking into this." In fact, it's not too hard to interpret McCormack's brief remark as an indirect confirmation of the story. If there was no truth to the report, wouldn't the White House try to shoot it down? The article had been released two days before this interview. McCormack had had plenty of time to determine if the piece was accurate. But--too bad for us--there was no more time left for the interview. Blitzer did not press McCormack on this subject and ended the segment.

This is what we're left with. A major media organization reports the Pentagon is considering recruiting death squad-like paramilitary units in Iraq, and the White House declares it has nothing to say on this explosive matter. How can we not read between the lines and draw the obvious conclusion? The awfully-named "Salvador option" is alive. Both the Newsweek article and the McCormack interview deserve follow-ups.

Posted by David Corn

Source
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:49 am
JustWonders wrote:
Foxfyre - yes. For instance, people in Fallujah can vote wherever they want and several other provinces have been given the same options. Also, there are five cities in the U.S. where Iraqis can vote, along with voting options for Iraqis living in 14 other countries.




What do you mean that there are five places in the US and other places where Iraqi's can vote, how is that going to help those in provinces in Iraq to be able to vote?


So the four provinces have been given alternative places to vote? Do you have a source for that information?

How would they get there amid all the violence if it is so unsafe for them to be able to go to a polling place that they have to shut it down? Wouldn't it be just as unsafe to go to another polling place? I mean they would still have to venture out of their homes to go another place the same as the original polling place that they shut down so why shut any of them down?

It seems to me that we are expecting an awful lot of out of Iraqi's to fulfill when it would be more legitmate to wait until it is more organized and less violent to insure a legit election that can be trusted.

It is just typical of this administration to keep on a path no matter what just so it can say that they accomplished their goal no matter what the reality is.

You are big on appearing optimistic I have noticed. I wonder if you would be that optimistic if you were living in Fallujah where it is a virtual ghost town because of all violence (mainly of the US 's doing) and then told if you want to vote you can go anywhere in Iraq to vote.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 08:28 am
The insurgents are taunting us now.

Quote:
Departing from fiery Islamic slogans, Iraqi guerrillas have launched a propaganda campaign with an English-language video urging U.S. troops to lay down their weapons and seek refuge in mosques and homes.

The video, narrated in fluent English by what sounded like an Iraqi educated in the United States or Britain, also mocked the U.S. president's challenge to rebels in the early days of the insurgency to 'bring it on'.

"George W. Bush; you have asked us to 'bring it on'. And so help me, (we will) like you never expected. Do you have another challenge?" asked the narrator before the video showed explosions around a U.S. military Humvee vehicle.

Threats intended to demoralise and frighten in the tense build up to elections at the end of the month were tempered with invitations to desert and escape retribution.

A masked guerrilla from an unknown group called the Islamic Jihad Army, eschewing past impassioned Arabic-language threats of holy war, told U.S. soldiers: "This is not your war, nor are you fighting for a true cause in Iraq."

"To the American soldiers we say you can also choose to fight tyranny with us. Lay down your weapons and seek refuge in our mosques, churches and homes. We will protect you," he said ...

"We have not crossed the oceans and seas to occupy Britain or the U.S. nor are we responsible for 9/11. These are only a few of these lies that these criminals present to cover their true plans," said the narrator, apparently referring to the Bush administration's assertion of a link between Saddam Hussein and those attacks.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 10:06 am
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006137

We Shouldn't Yawn
A roundup of the past month's good news from Afghanistan.

BY ARTHUR CHRENKOFF
Monday, January 10, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

Stephen Hayes of The Weekly Standard, who traveled to Afghanistan to witness the inauguration of President Hamid Karzai, quotes from the speech by the country's first democratically elected leader:


Whatever we have achieved in Afghanistan--the peace, the election, the reconstruction, the life that the Afghans are living today in peace, the children going to school, the businesses, the fact that Afghanistan is again a respected member of the international community--is from the help that the United States of America gave us. Without that help Afghanistan would be in the hands of terrorists--destroyed, poverty-stricken, and without its children going to school or getting an education. We are very, very grateful, to put it in the simple words that we know, to the people of the United States of America for bringing us this day.

Sounds familiar? It shouldn't. As Hayes writes, "Sadly, most Americans never heard these words. Gratitude, it seems, is not terribly newsworthy. Neither is democracy. The Washington Post played Karzai's inauguration on page A-13, a placement that suggested it was relatively less important than Eliot Spitzer's decision to run for governor of New York or the decision of the U.S. government to import flu vaccine from Germany." As columnist Charles Krauthammer commented on the mainstream media's reaction to the inauguration, "Miracle begets yawn."

Ironically, one of the most comprehensive and most optimistic overviews of the tremendous progress achieved in Afghanistan over the past three years comes, of all places, from the official communist Chinese press agency Xinhua. If you want to read the "good news from Afghanistan" in one short, sharp piece, go to Xinhua; if you are after more detail about all the positive--and underreported, "yawn"-inducing--developments in Afghanistan over the past month, read on.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 10:55 am
As just a comment, I don't think Afghanistan and Iraq are comparable. We had reason to go into Afghanistan and so we had more help. The demcracy that is sort of taking place is a side benifit and wasn't something that we just decided like puppet masters to do and so can be looked at in a positive light.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 11:18 am
Afghanistan had to be taken out; the Taliban's direct support of AQ, admitted by their own mouths, could not be tolerated.

No such justification existed for Iraq; so they made up one, WMD.

Now we are reaping the consequences of our foolish decision to rush into war in Iraq.

Our soldiers don't seem to be too happy these days, btw:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/13/objecting.soldier.ap/index.html

Quote:
Army sergeant refuses 2nd Iraq deployment
Seeks conscientious objector status

Thursday, January 13, 2005 Posted: 10:12 AM EST (1512 GMT)

SAVANNAH, Georgia (AP) -- A mechanic with nine years in the Army, including a role in the assault on Baghdad, has refused to return to Iraq, claiming "you just don't know how bad it is."


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 11:24 am
Yes revel, and yes Cyclo, and no, this isn't the proper thread in which to post good news from Afghanistan.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 11:25 am
JustWonders wrote:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006137

We Shouldn't Yawn
A roundup of the past month's good news from Afghanistan.

BY ARTHUR CHRENKOFF
Monday, January 10, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

Thank you for the link, JW. It is indeed a shame that most are oblivious to this progress. Well worth the read, folks.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 11:30 am
I agree.

Look, even though many of us are against the war in Iraq, we'd be a lot happier if the current admin hadn't f*cked things up so bad!

Afghanistan seems to be going a lot better, but who can tell? It's hard to support the country that produces more than 80% of the opium in the world now....

Why is the US gov't not cracking down on this narcoterrorism? Isn't this heroin that is being made in Afghanistan a scourge on our populace? Why, yes it is! Surely this is the real front on the war on terror!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 11:33 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
It is indeed a shame that most are oblivious to this progress.



Most US-Americans, you mean, I only can suppose.

Elsewhere, Afghanistan is and has been in the news on a nearly daily basis.
(This seems more to be an issue on the US 'understanding' of "International News", I think.)
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 11:41 am
Yes Walter, that's what I meant. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 11:44 am
Patience, Cyclo. Rome wasn't built in a day, as they say.

In the meantime, these poignant thoughts from a UNICEF spokesperson (linked in the article above)...
------------------------------------------------------------

Reflections on progress for Afghanistan's children

Looking back over nearly three years here in Afghanistan, I have been thinking of some of the amazing changes I have witnessed for myself. As a spokesperson for UNICEF, I have the unrivalled luxury of dipping my nose into a whole range of activities, and reporting on them to the outside world.

I have given briefings on reductions of polio and measles amongst children, a fall in landmine injuries, and massive increases in the number of children going to school. I still can't think of that day in 2002 - when my Afghan colleagues and I watched the first girls walk back into their schools - without my heart jumping.

I have interviewed former child soldiers now learning to be carpenters; I have walked through the foothills of the Hindu Kush to monitor distribution of school supplies; I have visited projects where widows and other women have been able to earn an income in their own right for the first time in a decade; and I have drafted statements applauding Government commitments to key child rights legislation and international conventions, which in some cases set examples for other countries.

So much progress, so many steps forward have been taken. As another year comes to an end, it seemed an appropriate moment to reflect on how rapidly life has changed for the better for so many Afghan children. Given the history of Afghanistan, a history steeped in conflict and chaos, those changes take on even greater significance.

The year began with a new Constitution for Afghanistan, and the hope for a new democracy. Slowly but surely, in spite of many who feared a violent twist to the process, the first Presidential elections were organized. Just last week the new President was sworn in at the beautiful Presidential Palace in the centre of the capital.

Sadly, the threat of instability still lurks in the shadows. When I first arrived in Kabul in early 2002 one could drive right up to the gates of the Palace. Since that time, rings of steel and concrete have rippled outwards in the form of barriers and roadblocks. On the President's inauguration day, most people's view of the Palace was limited to a glimpse of the red, green and black national flag fluttering above the tree tops.

This is not to say that the new leaders of Afghanistan are isolated from the aspirations of the people. A few weeks ago, to mark the 15th anniversary of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, Vice President Hidayat Amin Arsala opened his offices to a group of children and received from them a new Children's Manifesto for Afghanistan.

The Manifesto set out the hopes and expectations of Afghan children, and outlined key policy targets for both the Government and its partners in the reconstruction process. His Excellency took the matter seriously, and made a public commitment to ensure that the Manifesto would be brought to the attention of the new Cabinet before the end of the year.

For Afghanistan's youngest citizens, a long-denied opportunity - to make their voice heard and help shape their own future - has arrived, if slightly early, as their New Year's gift.

http://paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=87255
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 12:38 pm
Attention Bush-whacker-we-cannots!
There are now 14 million registered Iraqi voters.
Outstanding!

Corection!
12.64
million or more Iraqis will vote.
Astonishing!
After they vote, there will be
[/b]Corection!
12.64
million or more Iraqi Patrick Henrys.
Quote:
It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry peace, peace!—but there is no peace. The war is actually begun. The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms. Our brethen are already in the field. Why stay we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me:give me liberty, or give me death!

You can count on it![/b]
0 Replies
 
 

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