The US' concern for the plight of Iraqis under Saddam was an afterthought, ican. Our pretexts for our invasion was WMD in Iraq that threatened us, and a "nexus" between Saddam and al Qaeda. Without those pretexts, do you think we would have invaded Iraq for the sake of Iraqis?
We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those that harbor them.
Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every nation that supports them
Main Entry: 2harbor
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): har·bored; har·bor·ing /-b(&-)ri[ng]/
transitive senses
1 a : to give shelter or refuge to b : to be the home or habitat of <the ledges still harbor rattlesnakes>; broadly : CONTAIN 2
2 : to hold especially persistently in the mind : CHERISH <harbored a grudge>
intransitive senses
1 : to take shelter in or as if in a harbor
2 : LIVE
- har·bor·er /-b&r-&r/ noun
Main Entry: 1sup·port
Pronunciation: s&-'pOrt, -'port
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French supporter, from Late Latin supportare, from Latin, to carry, from sub- + portare to carry -- more at FARE
1 : to endure bravely or quietly : BEAR
2 a (1) : to promote the interests or cause of (2) : to uphold or defend as valid or right : ADVOCATE (3) : to argue or vote for b (1) : ASSIST, HELP (2) : to act with (a star actor) (3) : to bid in bridge so as to show support for c : to provide with substantiation : CORROBORATE <support an alibi>
3 a : to pay the costs of : MAINTAIN b : to provide a basis for the existence or subsistence of <the island could probably support three -- A. B. C. Whipple>
4 a : to hold up or serve as a foundation or prop for b : to maintain (a price) at a desired level by purchases or loans; also : to maintain the price of by purchases or loans
5 : to keep from fainting, yielding, or losing courage : COMFORT
6 : to keep (something) going
The Iraqis will "vote" to keep the coalition forces there.
OCCOM BILL wrote:revel wrote:So in your opinion, a straight massacre of several million Iraqis, that would serve only to enslave the remaining Iraqis in radical Islamic extremism is still better than to be manipulated by the Bush administration into some form of self-determination.If we leave, maybe other nations will be more willing to help, but even if they are not and a big civil war happens that people keep talking about, it is still better for them to work it out themselves however it turns out than to be manipulated by the Bush administration.And this after feigning concern that people are dying in the streets?
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I believe that you are guilty of putting words into my post that I never typed.
We had a civil war and it was horrible and lot of lives were lost and destroyed. Yet if we didn't then we might not have ended slavery. The point is that we did it because it was our country. The Iraqi's should be able to do with their country what they want to without us manipulating the outcome.
Btw-how can you manipulate a nation into a self determination?
But the fact is that the proposition "Japan and Germany both had democracies imposed by war" is more easily defended (A LOT MORE EASILY DEFENDED) than the proposition "Democracy will never be imposed by war."
I said the latter; Ican said the former.
I was wrong; Ican was correct.
No part of my concession, however, should suggest to anyone that I think democracy will be imposed by this misadventure in Iraq. The indications I see suggest it will not...and that Iraq and the world will be the worse for what what Bush and company have done here.
Insurgency in Japan? You've bought into the Bush rhetoric without understanding the history. The following article should enlighten you - maybe not.
The barbarians are at the gates. The Shias are coming. Flee, flee. That was the basic message carried by the excitable king of Jordan during his last visit to Washington. As Abdullah II made the beltway rounds warning of a "Shia Crescent" emerging in the Middle East as a result of a Shia victory in Iraq's upcoming elections, he sought to rehash memories of better days when Iran used to be the menace and people like him still mattered to American interests. What is really on his mind is the Democratic sickle likely to cut a swath through the region.
The elite club of Arab rulers is about to run into affirmative action: it has to let in its first popularly elected member. They had welcomed newcomers in the past, usually midranking military officers who got introduced to the local CIA or KGB station chief and pulled off a lucky coup. All memberships are lifelong, and gender exclusive. Now, the Iraqi who gets the most votes automatically becomes a member and ceases to be one after his or her term - not life - expires. What is the Middle East coming to?
Before the liberation of Iraq, the former foreign minister of Egypt, Amr Mousa, who is the secretary of the Arab League, warned that marching into Baghdad would open up the gates of hell. Sounds bad, but he is absolutely correct if understood in the parlance of Arab rulers: Hell to them is a place where people are motivated by inspiration, whereas their heaven is teaming with citizens motivated by cattle prods.
Democracy in Iraq is going to play out in real time. The whole Middle East will be watching, and its youth are going to be offered the "What's behind door no. 3?" option. Door no. 1 leads the young Middle Easterner to a welcoming committee of Arab rulers: you can immigrate, break down, or get co-opted. If you don't like things as they are, then Stockholm is beautiful this time of year. Otherwise, do drugs or vegetate watching soap operas and rant against Israel. But if you play your sycophantic cards well then you can have the leftovers and the distinct honor of washing the dirty dishes.
Door no. 2 opens up to a damp cave some where near Kandahar. Osama Bin Laden greets the newly arrived Middle Easterner: "Here is the RPG and its user manual, and a copy of the Koran autographed by the author's agent - moi. "You are instructed to make your way back to Arabia and get on with the business of slaying the infidels. In due course, you will die and go dine in the company of the Prophet Muhammad. You will be given the option of "smoking or nonsmoking" as the Angel Gabriel leads you to your table. Should you stay alive, then you get to enjoy the rides of Wahhabi-Land theme park; "pick up your cotton candy and stand in line for the magic act, oh boy, you're in luck, it's a beheading!"
Behind door no.3 is the prospect of a functioning democracy. Sure, it is messy and littered with chads, but you get to keep your dignity. Moreover, you might end up with the opportunity of a better life. Parliament will force that obnoxious royal highness to auction off his Ferrari, and the proceeds may go towards purchasing 30 Hyundais for regular citizens like you. If you are a woman in Saudi Arabia, you will finally get to drive a car. Or, maybe you will put to use that high-tech education and launch your own business. Part of the overhead that was once earmarked for graft and red tape may pay for a Maserati for the owner. Or it may buy a new boiler for the orphanage down the street. It's up to you, young man. And if things don't turn out great, then vent your pent-up frustration at the ballot box or pen a letter to the editor. Just put away the rocket-propelled grenade launcher; things may turn for the better, every four years or so.
There's a demographic bulge of late teenagers in the Middle East, according to the available surveys, and each young man or woman has three options: the status quo, Al Qaeda, or democracy. The lack of public participation in the terror-inspired chaos sought by Mr. bin Laden in Saudi Arabia should be encouraging to many in policy circles. But it is too early for high-fives. The reason that Mr. bin Laden's message has not been gaining ground is that regular Saudi folks are waiting for President Bush to deliver on his new promise of change through democracy. To believe that they will remain content with the status quo is to misunderstand the whole phenomenon of Al Qaeda: people are angry at America in part because America maintains the current order and pays the utility bills at the club of Arab rulers.
Al Jazeera and other press outlets owned and managed by the Arab rulers advise their viewers that they should be angered by Israel and Abu Ghraib. But most ordinary Arab families are discerning hints of the future from coverage of the Iraqi elections: "Is America serious and on my side? Or is it on the side of King Abdullah & Co?"
However, being the political equivalent of a moralistic vegetarian among cannibals can be damaging to your health. Three Saudi democrats, Matrouk Al-Faleh, Ali Al-Dumaini and Abdullah Al-Hamed, are finding this out the hard way. Their crime: believing America's promise of a new democratic Middle East, and spreading the word. They are charged with the same slew of bad deeds leveled by King George III against the first American patriots. The Saudi authorities seem to think that these three democrats should rot in jail, where they have been since last March - their lawyer also got arrested recently - while a fellow called Khalid Al-Harbi gets to hobble out of incarceration. Do you remember Mr. Harbi? He appeared on television shortly after September 11 in an audience with Osama Bin Laden to personally convey his congrats. Here's another hint: he had no legs. Well, the Saudi government had the gall to issue a press release saying that he had been set free last month. Apparently, Saudi prisons are not wheelchair accessible. How nice of them to let him go.
This is a slap in the face of Mr. Bush if ever there was one. Adding insult to injury, the club of Arab rulers has made common cause with Al Qaeda against his experiment with democracy in Iraq. Will the sheriff emerge from the saloon guns ablaze, or will a State Department spokesman deliver a sharply worded yet narrowly reported denunciation? Every young Middle Easterner is waiting for the Texan to make his move, before they make their own through one of three doors to the future.
BAGHDAD--In just over one month's time, the citizens of Iraq will be presented with a unique opportunity to close a chapter of decades of tyrannical rule and take their first steps to shape their own future by participating in the first free and fair elections in generations. On Jan. 30, Iraqis will vote for the Iraqi National Assembly to enable the drafting of a permanent constitution, in preparation for full elections for a government one year later.
As the Iraqi Interim Government, we have been active these past months in preparing and paving the road to these elections. Along with our allies from the multinational forces, we have waged a tireless and determined fight against the criminals, terrorists, and Saddam loyalists who are dedicated to derailing Iraq on its approach to democracy. At the same time we have been engaged in rebuilding the country, while reaching out to all of Iraq's diverse communities so as to ensure an inclusive and representative electoral process. In this regard I recently met with senior Iraqi tribal leaders in Jordan and encouraged them to participate in this historic event.
On the economic side, we have also achieved an important breakthrough in securing an 80% debt reduction for Iraq with the Paris Club group of major lending countries. We appreciate that the United States has in turn written off our remaining debt to it. We hope to build on this momentum to agree equal or better debt reduction arrangements with other creditor countries, including those among our Arab neighbors. This will be an important requirement if Iraq is to have a hope of building the economic prosperity that is so vital to its stability and security, and indeed to that of the entire region.
Turning to the conduct of the elections next month, and despite all the pessimism by the skeptics, we see encouraging signs as Iraqis enthusiastically register to vote, and thousands of candidates from across the political spectrum put themselves forward for election. The cowardly targeting of voter registration centers by terrorists demonstrates their fear of the coming fulfillment of Iraq's aspirations for democracy and freedom.
I have recently submitted our national unity slate of candidates "Al-Iraqiya"--the Iraqi List, made up of a broad and representative set of respected individuals mirroring the rich geographical, ethnic and religious mix of the country. We see this mix in Iraq as a source of strength and talent, and not as a reason for factionalism and discrimination. Our goal is a united Iraq--safe, secure, and prosperous.
We are reaching out to all Iraqis in a spirit of national unity and reconciliation, and will continue to draw a clear distinction between criminals of the former regime and those who are innocent of such crimes but found it necessary to join the Baath Party to earn a living. All those who respect the rule of law will be respected by us and given the opportunity to live as productive citizens. Those who choose crime and terror will be defeated.
We will fight bias and factionalism in all its forms, and seek to include all ethnic and religious communities. We will aim to build strong and honest governmental institutions, and strive to stamp out corruption in all areas of Iraqi life. We will work to restore the rights of those who suffered under the previous regime, while enabling the progress of a free media and strong institutions for civil society.
We aim to continue the rebuilding of the Iraqi Army as a professional, apolitical, and meritocratic institution, as well as the responsible rebuilding of the police and other vital security services. We will also work towards orderly withdrawal of the multinational forces from Iraq according to a specific timetable--based on building sufficient capability in the Iraqi security forces.
Finally, and in tandem with our focus on security, we plan to focus on the rebuilding of Iraq's economy and infrastructure, so as to provide much-needed employment and decent public services. Iraq's oil wealth will be developed and used for the good of the people, and education, health care and a social safety net for the disadvantaged will all be among our top priorities.
The elections next month will be transparent and competitive, supervised across the country by the thousands of brave workers of the Independent Electoral Commission for Iraq, and by international organizations including the U.N. Iraqis will have over 250 different parties and political entities from which to choose--a far cry from the farcical referendum with Saddam as the single candidate who received 100% of the vote. They will be conducted in the open and under public scrutiny, and though these elections and the ones the year after will not by themselves create a democracy, they will be a major landmark event of huge significance. The resulting National Assembly will be one of the most important in our history--responsible for drafting our permanent constitution which will then be put to referendum for approval by the people. In addition, there will be voting for the 18 provincial councils and for the Kurdish Assembly, reflecting the important role of local government in the new democratic Iraq.
For all these reasons, it is not surprising that there has been robust debate about the timing and modalities for these elections. The debate is a positive sign that Iraqis take these elections extremely seriously and understand their significance for the future of our country and indeed the wider region. Just as we and the vast majority of Iraqis are determined that the elections will go forward on time however, there are those--a combination of terrorists and loyalists of the former regime--who will attempt to derail the process with barbaric and cowardly acts of violence, such as the recent horrific bombings in Najaf and Karbala and the brutal murders of brave Iraqi election officials. Though such attacks may escalate in the coming weeks as we approach the elections, they cannot and will not be allowed to achieve their destructive aims. As Iraqis, we will refuse to be divided and cowed into fear by such criminals. We will stand firm.
Ballots will prove far more powerful than bullets in the end, and the will of the peaceful majority of Iraqis will triumph over the terror tactics of a hateful few. To this mission, I and my colleagues from the Interim Government pledge ourselves, and we call upon the governments and citizens of our allies in the international community and our neighbors in the region to do their utmost to support Iraq at this critical juncture. A free and secure Iraq will be a victory for all peace-loving people, and we Iraqis face a historic opportunity that we shall not squander.
I prefer to rely on the opinions of these historians and professors of history at Harvard rather than your "personal" opinions about comparing Japan, Germany, and Iraq.
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No kidding, c.i. Was just coming here to post and see I was beat by a hare.
Here's the Reuters report on the topic:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20041226/ts_nm/iraq_election_dc
I prefer to rely on the opinions of these historians and professors of history at Harvard rather than your "personal" opinions about comparing Japan, Germany, and Iraq.
... the Japanese had a tradition of democracy and civil society on which to draw.
...the German civil bureaucracy remained largely intact with a tradition of liberal, democratic government on which to build.
revel wrote:Revel, if you don't think the Iraqis who desire democracy and self determination can win with our help; what do you think would happen if we abandoned them? (Answer: a straight massacre of several million Iraqis, that would serve only to enslave the remaining Iraqis in radical Islamic extremism)OCCOM BILL wrote:revel wrote:So in your opinion, a straight massacre of several million Iraqis, that would serve only to enslave the remaining Iraqis in radical Islamic extremism is still better than to be manipulated by the Bush administration into some form of self-determination.If we leave, maybe other nations will be more willing to help, but even if they are not and a big civil war happens that people keep talking about, it is still better for them to work it out themselves however it turns out than to be manipulated by the Bush administration.And this after feigning concern that people are dying in the streets?
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I believe that you are guilty of putting words into my post that I never typed.
revel wrote:Should they? Should fiends like Saddam Hussein or the head-chopper Zarqawi, be allowed to murder people by the millions because it's their country? We had a Civil War because a percentage of our population was against evolving into a society that recognized the human rights of human beings. Today, there is war in Iraq because a small percentage of Iraq's citizens are fighting evolution into a society that recognizes the human rights of human beings.We had a civil war and it was horrible and lot of lives were lost and destroyed. Yet if we didn't then we might not have ended slavery. The point is that we did it because it was our country. The Iraqi's should be able to do with their country what they want to without us manipulating the outcome.
Our war against Saddam is over. It has been for a while now. Any threat he may have posed is past. It is the would-be oppressors, who wish to replace him, who are causing the havoc there today. They are a strong minority of Iraqis, who use terrorist-like tactics to attempt to bully their own population as well as the United States and the World. That's it, Revel. A strong, determined minority of people who wish to prevent the majority from obtaining self-determination.
Now, you can bitch and moan all you want about whether or not we should or shouldn't have come. We did. We arrested the slave owner. Now, having done so, should we free the slaves? Or should we just let the next ruthless, murderous bastard bullwhip them back into submission?
revel wrote:Finally, an easy question. Kill every last bastard that would kill to prevent it. Those who are willing to die to prevent their compatriots from obtaining freedom must be crushed. They are the true enemy of the people, and I fully expect the poll results in January to reflect recognition of this FACT.Btw-how can you manipulate a nation into a self determination?
"Band-Aids" that overlook the widespread hostility U.S. and allied forces face in Iraq.
"The idea that these are our allies, that's a lot of bunk. That's a really bad attitude," Lang said. "There has to be a much larger support group in the population which doesn't turn them in, which turns a blind eye, which cooperates with them."
In the months since the end of the invasion-phase of the Iraq war, Bush administration officials have linked surges in violence to a series of benchmarks after which, presumably, the attacks would abate. First it was the capture of Saddam Hussein, then the drafting of a constitution, then the establishment of an interim government and now the January elections.
You've missed some of the most important differences; Japan and Germany were toppled, and they didn't have the insurgency problems we have in Iraq (after major combat was declared over). Japan and Germany did not have tribal differences after the war as we do in Iraq.
