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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 04:35 pm
Maybe one the reasons that the "insurgents" didn't get friendly press back in WWII was because then there was a real reason to go to war and the enemy was clearly defined as Hitler and the nazis and the whole horrific holocaust era. It was something happening then at the time, not ten years later or ten years in the future maybe.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 04:47 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
The US' concern for the plight of Iraqis under Saddam was an afterthought, ican. Our pretexts for our invasion was WMD in Iraq that threatened us, and a "nexus" between Saddam and al Qaeda. Without those pretexts, do you think we would have invaded Iraq for the sake of Iraqis?

I say again, the threat of Saddam possessing ready-to-use WMD was one (and the most media promoted justification) among five justifications given by General Powell to the UN 2/5/03 for our invasion of Iraq. I judge each one of those justifications, which also included the plight of the Iraqi people under Saddam, to be sufficient justification.

I say again, based on what I already knew about al Qaeda and both Saddam and the Taliban, the justification President Bush gave the American people the night of 9/11/01, (1 month before we invaded Afganistan and 18 months before we invaded Iraq)
Quote:
We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those that harbor them.
and to the American Congress and the American people the night of 9/20/01
Quote:
Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every nation that supports them
was sufficient to convince me at that time that it was necessary for both Saddam and the Taliban to be removed. I have not changed my mind. Others will have to speak for themselves.

www.m-w.com
Quote:
Main Entry: 2harbor
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): har·bored; har·bor·ing /-b(&-)ri[ng]/
transitive senses
1 a : to give shelter or refuge to b : to be the home or habitat of <the ledges still harbor rattlesnakes>; broadly : CONTAIN 2
2 : to hold especially persistently in the mind : CHERISH <harbored a grudge>
intransitive senses
1 : to take shelter in or as if in a harbor
2 : LIVE
- har·bor·er /-b&r-&r/ noun


Quote:
Main Entry: 1sup·port
Pronunciation: s&-'pOrt, -'port
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French supporter, from Late Latin supportare, from Latin, to carry, from sub- + portare to carry -- more at FARE
1 : to endure bravely or quietly : BEAR
2 a (1) : to promote the interests or cause of (2) : to uphold or defend as valid or right : ADVOCATE (3) : to argue or vote for b (1) : ASSIST, HELP (2) : to act with (a star actor) (3) : to bid in bridge so as to show support for c : to provide with substantiation : CORROBORATE <support an alibi>
3 a : to pay the costs of : MAINTAIN b : to provide a basis for the existence or subsistence of <the island could probably support three -- A. B. C. Whipple>
4 a : to hold up or serve as a foundation or prop for b : to maintain (a price) at a desired level by purchases or loans; also : to maintain the price of by purchases or loans
5 : to keep from fainting, yielding, or losing courage : COMFORT
6 : to keep (something) going


InfraBlue wrote:
The Iraqis will "vote" to keep the coalition forces there.
I would if I were them. They should keep us there as long as it takes for them alone to achieve the ability to control and/or exterminate the removed, mass murdering, former Iraqi government and their current allies.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 05:00 pm
revel wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
revel wrote:
If we leave, maybe other nations will be more willing to help, but even if they are not and a big civil war happens that people keep talking about, it is still better for them to work it out themselves however it turns out than to be manipulated by the Bush administration.
So in your opinion, a straight massacre of several million Iraqis, that would serve only to enslave the remaining Iraqis in radical Islamic extremism is still better than to be manipulated by the Bush administration into some form of self-determination. Shocked And this after feigning concern that people are dying in the streets? Rolling Eyes


I believe that you are guilty of putting words into my post that I never typed.
Revel, if you don't think the Iraqis who desire democracy and self determination can win with our help; what do you think would happen if we abandoned them? (Answer: a straight massacre of several million Iraqis, that would serve only to enslave the remaining Iraqis in radical Islamic extremism)

revel wrote:
We had a civil war and it was horrible and lot of lives were lost and destroyed. Yet if we didn't then we might not have ended slavery. The point is that we did it because it was our country. The Iraqi's should be able to do with their country what they want to without us manipulating the outcome.
Should they? Should fiends like Saddam Hussein or the head-chopper Zarqawi, be allowed to murder people by the millions because it's their country? We had a Civil War because a percentage of our population was against evolving into a society that recognized the human rights of human beings. Today, there is war in Iraq because a small percentage of Iraq's citizens are fighting evolution into a society that recognizes the human rights of human beings.

Our war against Saddam is over. It has been for a while now. Any threat he may have posed is past. It is the would-be oppressors, who wish to replace him, who are causing the havoc there today. They are a strong minority of Iraqis, who use terrorist-like tactics to attempt to bully their own population as well as the United States and the World. That's it, Revel. A strong, determined minority of people who wish to prevent the majority from obtaining self-determination.

Now, you can bitch and moan all you want about whether or not we should or shouldn't have come. We did. We arrested the slave owner. Now, having done so, should we free the slaves? Or should we just let the next ruthless, murderous bastard bullwhip them back into submission?

revel wrote:
Btw-how can you manipulate a nation into a self determination?
Finally, an easy question. Kill every last bastard that would kill to prevent it. Those who are willing to die to prevent their compatriots from obtaining freedom must be crushed. They are the true enemy of the people, and I fully expect the poll results in January to reflect recognition of this FACT.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 05:06 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
But the fact is that the proposition "Japan and Germany both had democracies imposed by war" is more easily defended (A LOT MORE EASILY DEFENDED) than the proposition "Democracy will never be imposed by war."

I said the latter; Ican said the former.

I was wrong; Ican was correct.

No part of my concession, however, should suggest to anyone that I think democracy will be imposed by this misadventure in Iraq. The indications I see suggest it will not...and that Iraq and the world will be the worse for what what Bush and company have done here.
Thank you! That's putting things in clear and fair perspective. Likewise, just because I was right on this one does not mean I will either be right or be wrong on anything else. []= Smile =[] (that's my icon symbolizing my offer of a handsake)
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 06:07 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Insurgency in Japan? You've bought into the Bush rhetoric without understanding the history. The following article should enlighten you - maybe not.

I'm older than Bush 43, and while younger than Bush 41, I was old enough during and post WWII to have a keen interest in (close family members fought in WWII), and know and understand what was going on in both Japan and Germany. Bush's rhetoric reveals he sees some of the same valid similarites your rhetoric reveals you and your references don't see. You draw on your experience wit today's news media, while I draw on my direct knowledge of what it takes to put down tyranny.

Yes, Iraq is an extremely difficult problem too. And, yes, there are valid similarities as well as big valid differences. One similarity, perhaps the most important one, is that the US was then trying to do something, then never achieved before, that required great gumption, optimism, and the willingness for some of us to endure hardship to achieve a great success.

One major difference is that Iraq is populated by different antagonistic groups of people who had previously been compelled to endure their government's evils, whereas for the most part the Japanese and German people supported their previous governments. The Japanese and German people went along with the democracy idea at first to avoid conflict with their conquerors. Democracy only later grew on them, so to speak. I bet the Iraqis are going along with the democracy idea to avoid re-experiencing the terrifying horrors they endured at the hands of their previous government. However, we have yet to convince Iraqis they can learn like others before them how to secure a democracy. For that matter, we have yet to convince a goodly number of Americans that like others before us we are capable of convincing a people how to secure a democracy for themselves.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 07:10 pm
Seems Oz is joining the US in opinion re Iraq - though I don't think the majority EVER supported it:


Majority believe Iraq 'wasn't worth it'
By Steve Lewis
December 27, 2004

A GROWING number of Australians believe the war in Iraq was not worth the bloodshed, with opposition hardening as the US-led coalition of the willing struggles to overcome stiff resistance from insurgents.

But there is equally strong backing for Australian troops to stay the course and assist in Iraq's stuttering transition towards democracy.

Amid continuing carnage in strife-torn Iraq - and just days after a suicide bomber killed 22 people, including 19 US soldiers, near Mosul - a clear majority of Australians now believe last year's invasion was not worth the effort.

Just 32 per cent of the community believe John Howard's decision to send troops into Iraq was justified, according to a Newspoll conducted exclusively for The Australian.

This represents a steep fall from the 46 per cent surveyed in February who believed Australia's war effort was justified.










Nearly 60 per cent now believe it was not worth Australia joining the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

But despite the community's growing dissatisfaction with the war, the Government remains committed to maintaining Australia's military presence in Iraq. The Prime Minister has yet to put a timeframe on withdrawing Australia's 900-strong contingent from the Persian Gulf.

But Mark Latham's pledge to bring the troops home by Christmas failed to resonate with most voters. Just 33 per cent of those surveyed believe Australian troops should come home immediately, compared with 45 per cent who believe they should remain as long as necessary.

And 18 per cent want to see the Government withdraw troops in the second half of next year.

The Iraq war continues to divide Australia's political parties. Labor's acting leader Jenny Macklin said the Opposition remained determined to see troops home "as soon as possible and we'll be asking the Howard Government to articulate its own exit strategy for Iraq".

She said Australia's priority should be to assist the Iraqi people through "economic reconstruction and humanitarian aid" rather than military support.

The Newspoll survey comes as Iraq prepares for its first democratic election since Saddam Hussein came to power, due to be held on January 30.

A vast majority of Labor voters, 73 per cent, now believe it was not worth going into Iraq compared with 39 per cent of Coalition supporters.

Half of all Coalition voters, however, believe Mr Howard's decision to go to war was justified, compared with just 21 per cent of Labor voters.

But the latest figure represents a softening in support since earlier in the year, when 60 per cent of Coalition thought it was worth going to war.

Nearly 70 per cent of Coalition supporters believe Australia should stay the course in Iraq. By contrast, just 30 per cent of Labor voters share this view.

The falling support for the Iraq war follows a similar slump in support in the US.

A US opinion poll last week found 56 per cent of Americans surveyed - a new high - said the war was not worth it.

US President George W. Bush, in a sombre assessment of the conflict, said the string of recent bombings in Iraq was aimed at US and Iraqi public opinion and was "having an effect".

The Australian



http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11790538%255E421,00.html

The Australian, btw, is Murdoch press - you know, the Fox guy - though it tries to be classier than Murdoch's usual crap
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 07:14 pm
OPINION

Three Doors (Iraq Election)
BY Nibras Kazimi
December 23, 2004
URL: http://www.nysun.com/article/6727

Quote:
The barbarians are at the gates. The Shias are coming. Flee, flee. That was the basic message carried by the excitable king of Jordan during his last visit to Washington. As Abdullah II made the beltway rounds warning of a "Shia Crescent" emerging in the Middle East as a result of a Shia victory in Iraq's upcoming elections, he sought to rehash memories of better days when Iran used to be the menace and people like him still mattered to American interests. What is really on his mind is the Democratic sickle likely to cut a swath through the region.

The elite club of Arab rulers is about to run into affirmative action: it has to let in its first popularly elected member. They had welcomed newcomers in the past, usually midranking military officers who got introduced to the local CIA or KGB station chief and pulled off a lucky coup. All memberships are lifelong, and gender exclusive. Now, the Iraqi who gets the most votes automatically becomes a member and ceases to be one after his or her term - not life - expires. What is the Middle East coming to?

Before the liberation of Iraq, the former foreign minister of Egypt, Amr Mousa, who is the secretary of the Arab League, warned that marching into Baghdad would open up the gates of hell. Sounds bad, but he is absolutely correct if understood in the parlance of Arab rulers: Hell to them is a place where people are motivated by inspiration, whereas their heaven is teaming with citizens motivated by cattle prods.

Democracy in Iraq is going to play out in real time. The whole Middle East will be watching, and its youth are going to be offered the "What's behind door no. 3?" option. Door no. 1 leads the young Middle Easterner to a welcoming committee of Arab rulers: you can immigrate, break down, or get co-opted. If you don't like things as they are, then Stockholm is beautiful this time of year. Otherwise, do drugs or vegetate watching soap operas and rant against Israel. But if you play your sycophantic cards well then you can have the leftovers and the distinct honor of washing the dirty dishes.

Door no. 2 opens up to a damp cave some where near Kandahar. Osama Bin Laden greets the newly arrived Middle Easterner: "Here is the RPG and its user manual, and a copy of the Koran autographed by the author's agent - moi. "You are instructed to make your way back to Arabia and get on with the business of slaying the infidels. In due course, you will die and go dine in the company of the Prophet Muhammad. You will be given the option of "smoking or nonsmoking" as the Angel Gabriel leads you to your table. Should you stay alive, then you get to enjoy the rides of Wahhabi-Land theme park; "pick up your cotton candy and stand in line for the magic act, oh boy, you're in luck, it's a beheading!"

Behind door no.3 is the prospect of a functioning democracy. Sure, it is messy and littered with chads, but you get to keep your dignity. Moreover, you might end up with the opportunity of a better life. Parliament will force that obnoxious royal highness to auction off his Ferrari, and the proceeds may go towards purchasing 30 Hyundais for regular citizens like you. If you are a woman in Saudi Arabia, you will finally get to drive a car. Or, maybe you will put to use that high-tech education and launch your own business. Part of the overhead that was once earmarked for graft and red tape may pay for a Maserati for the owner. Or it may buy a new boiler for the orphanage down the street. It's up to you, young man. And if things don't turn out great, then vent your pent-up frustration at the ballot box or pen a letter to the editor. Just put away the rocket-propelled grenade launcher; things may turn for the better, every four years or so.

There's a demographic bulge of late teenagers in the Middle East, according to the available surveys, and each young man or woman has three options: the status quo, Al Qaeda, or democracy. The lack of public participation in the terror-inspired chaos sought by Mr. bin Laden in Saudi Arabia should be encouraging to many in policy circles. But it is too early for high-fives. The reason that Mr. bin Laden's message has not been gaining ground is that regular Saudi folks are waiting for President Bush to deliver on his new promise of change through democracy. To believe that they will remain content with the status quo is to misunderstand the whole phenomenon of Al Qaeda: people are angry at America in part because America maintains the current order and pays the utility bills at the club of Arab rulers.

Al Jazeera and other press outlets owned and managed by the Arab rulers advise their viewers that they should be angered by Israel and Abu Ghraib. But most ordinary Arab families are discerning hints of the future from coverage of the Iraqi elections: "Is America serious and on my side? Or is it on the side of King Abdullah & Co?"

However, being the political equivalent of a moralistic vegetarian among cannibals can be damaging to your health. Three Saudi democrats, Matrouk Al-Faleh, Ali Al-Dumaini and Abdullah Al-Hamed, are finding this out the hard way. Their crime: believing America's promise of a new democratic Middle East, and spreading the word. They are charged with the same slew of bad deeds leveled by King George III against the first American patriots. The Saudi authorities seem to think that these three democrats should rot in jail, where they have been since last March - their lawyer also got arrested recently - while a fellow called Khalid Al-Harbi gets to hobble out of incarceration. Do you remember Mr. Harbi? He appeared on television shortly after September 11 in an audience with Osama Bin Laden to personally convey his congrats. Here's another hint: he had no legs. Well, the Saudi government had the gall to issue a press release saying that he had been set free last month. Apparently, Saudi prisons are not wheelchair accessible. How nice of them to let him go.

This is a slap in the face of Mr. Bush if ever there was one. Adding insult to injury, the club of Arab rulers has made common cause with Al Qaeda against his experiment with democracy in Iraq. Will the sheriff emerge from the saloon guns ablaze, or will a State Department spokesman deliver a sharply worded yet narrowly reported denunciation? Every young Middle Easterner is waiting for the Texan to make his move, before they make their own through one of three doors to the future.


Mr. Kazimi is an Iraqi writer living in Washington, D.C. He can be contacted
at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]> .
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 07:20 pm
I prefer to rely on the opinions of these historians and professors of history at Harvard rather than your "personal" opinions about comparing Japan, Germany, and Iraq.
******************************************
Charles Maier, the Leverett Saltonstall Professor of History, points out similarities and differences between the U.S. occupations of Germany and Japan. (Staff photos Jon Chase/Harvard News Office)


Looking at Germany, Japan, Iraq: A tale of three occupations
U.S. 'occupations' compared by panel
By Ken Gewertz
Harvard News Office

Soon after the Bush administration revealed its plan to overthrow Saddam Hussein and bring democracy to Iraq, commentators began comparing this initiative with America's occupation of Germany and Japan following World War II. Depending on one's perspective, these comparisons could be positive (We've done it before and we can do it again) or negative (The situation in 1945 was entirely different; you don't know what you're getting into).

For someone with even the slightest hope that the lessons of history might shed light on current events, such a comparison would seem extraordinarily valuable, provided it could be made with expert knowledge and scholarly objectivity.

On March 3, a panel of scholars gathered at the Minda de Gunzburg Center for European Studies (CES) for just that purpose. Sponsored by the Program on U.S.-Japan Relations, the panel included John Dower, the Elting E. Morison Professor of History at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning book "Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II"; Charles Maier, the Leverett Saltonstall Professor of History, author of numerous books and articles on 20th century European history; and Eva Bellin, associate professor of political science at Hunter College, who has written extensively on the politics of the Middle East.

Susan Pharr, the Edwin O. Reischauer Professor of Japanese Politics and director of the the Program on US-Japan Relations, organized the event and served as moderator.


M.I.T.'s John Dower: 'The Japanese said, "We were liberated from death." They were seizing the opportunity to start over, to create a new society.'

The discussion took place the day after explosions in Baghdad and Karbala killed more than 100 people on the Shiite holiday of Ashura, an event all three panelists remarked on.

"In Iraq almost every day seems to be a day of grief and mourning," Dower said. "If you compare the situation with Japan, the contrast is stunning. For eight or nine years after the war, the Japanese were grieving and mourning, but not about what was taking place in front of them."

During the occupation of Japan, incidents of violence were virtually unknown, Dower said. The source of grief for the Japanese was the death and destruction caused by nearly 15 years of war, whose termination, even if it meant defeat, they were eager to embrace.

"The hardship was extraordinary, as great or greater than Iraq," Dower said.

During the war, 54 Japanese cities had been bombed and Tokyo had been reduced nearly to rubble. Three million Japanese had been killed and thousands more died later of malnutrition. Until 1949 the economy was plagued by hyperinflation, and only the black market showed any sign of vitality. And yet during this terrible time, the society remained relatively stable and secure, so much so that by 1950 the United States was able to reduce its occupying force from 450,000 to 150,000.

According to Dower, the intensity and duration of suffering in Japan was an important reason the occupation went so well.

"The Japanese said, 'We were liberated from death.' They were seizing the opportunity to start over, to create a new society."

There were other factors as well. One was the occupation's legitimacy. There had been a formal surrender by the Japanese and the occupation and reconstruction had been endorsed by Emperor Hirohito. Except for the military, the Japanese government remained intact at all levels, and the Japanese had a tradition of democracy and civil society on which to draw. There were no hostile political or religious factions within the country, and the fact that Japan was an island meant that there was little fear of terrorists or foreign fighters coming across the borders.

In addition, serious planning for the occupation had begun as early as 1942, and in the absence of television, the Internet, e-mail, and other forms of electronic communication, American authorities were able to maintain strict control over the sources of information in a way that is not possible today.

The occupation of Germany followed a very similar pattern, as Maier explained. Allied planning for the reconstruction of Germany had been going on since 1942; the Germans, like the Japanese, were weary of war and welcomed the chance to build a new society; and the German civil bureaucracy remained largely intact with a tradition of liberal, democratic government on which to build. As in Japan, there was no armed resistance, no assassinations or reprisals against collaborators, and no centers of terrorism in neighboring states.

One difference was that Germany became divided into eastern and western zones, but even this helped to ensure the success of the reconstruction, since West Germany had no choice but to cooperate with the Allies in order to gain protection against the Soviets.

Bellin generally agreed with her colleagues' comparison of the occupation of Iraq and those of Germany and Japan. One important difference is the extent to which Iraq's governmental and civil institutions have been destroyed.

"Japan and Germany were akin to a firm whose building has burned down and that needed an infusion of capital to get started again. Iraq is like a firm that is putting a business together for the first time, and, as we know, 70 percent of all new businesses fail."

Specific factors working against the success of Iraq's reconstruction, according to Bellin, are its religious and ethnic cleavages, which Saddam took every opportunity to deepen; its lack of effective, meritoriously organized bureaucratic systems; and the absence of any recent tradition of democratic government.

Ironically, the swiftness with which the United States toppled Saddam's regime and the avoidance of civilian casualties may actually work against the success of the reconstruction, Bellin said. In Germany and Japan the experience of total defeat and devastation broke down old conventions and opened the people to new ideas. The much shorter war in Iraq with relatively little loss of life on the part of the civilian population did not produce this psychological impact, while the sanctions imposed on Iraq after its invasion of Kuwait in 1990 have probably increased resistance.

"The hardships under the sanctions were like a slow bleed rather than a sudden mortal shock, and a slow bleed often makes people more able to cope."

Bellin's prognostications were not all negative, however. She pointed out that Iraq, with its huge oil reserves, may be economically better off than Japan and Germany, which did not take off economically until the late 1940s or early 1950s. And while Iraq does not have any national figures with the prestige of the Japanese emperor to authorize reconstruction efforts, it is possible that someone like the Shiite leader Ali Sistani may emerge as a unifying force.

In the end, it may be the unpredictability of events that offers the greatest hope for a positive outcome in Iraq. Maier made this point with reference to the 1989 collapse of the Soviet Union.

"If you don't allow for surprise, you're not doing your job as a historian. 1989 was thrilling because so many historians like me said it would never happen."

[email protected]
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 07:26 pm
Hmmm - was this already noted? Kurd shave signed a petition asking for independence and presented to the UN - http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200412/s1272667.htm

Iran, Syria and Turkey will NOT be happy.....

I wonder what effect this will have on Iraqi attitudes to life?


And - was this mentioned? US trying to set up system to guarantee Sunnis some positions - a very delicate matter:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200412/s1272584.htm
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 07:29 pm
OPINION

A Historic Moment for All Iraqis
Ballots will prove to be more powerful than bullets.

BY AYAD ALLAWI
Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:01 a.m.

Quote:
BAGHDAD--In just over one month's time, the citizens of Iraq will be presented with a unique opportunity to close a chapter of decades of tyrannical rule and take their first steps to shape their own future by participating in the first free and fair elections in generations. On Jan. 30, Iraqis will vote for the Iraqi National Assembly to enable the drafting of a permanent constitution, in preparation for full elections for a government one year later.

As the Iraqi Interim Government, we have been active these past months in preparing and paving the road to these elections. Along with our allies from the multinational forces, we have waged a tireless and determined fight against the criminals, terrorists, and Saddam loyalists who are dedicated to derailing Iraq on its approach to democracy. At the same time we have been engaged in rebuilding the country, while reaching out to all of Iraq's diverse communities so as to ensure an inclusive and representative electoral process. In this regard I recently met with senior Iraqi tribal leaders in Jordan and encouraged them to participate in this historic event.

On the economic side, we have also achieved an important breakthrough in securing an 80% debt reduction for Iraq with the Paris Club group of major lending countries. We appreciate that the United States has in turn written off our remaining debt to it. We hope to build on this momentum to agree equal or better debt reduction arrangements with other creditor countries, including those among our Arab neighbors. This will be an important requirement if Iraq is to have a hope of building the economic prosperity that is so vital to its stability and security, and indeed to that of the entire region.

Turning to the conduct of the elections next month, and despite all the pessimism by the skeptics, we see encouraging signs as Iraqis enthusiastically register to vote, and thousands of candidates from across the political spectrum put themselves forward for election. The cowardly targeting of voter registration centers by terrorists demonstrates their fear of the coming fulfillment of Iraq's aspirations for democracy and freedom.


I have recently submitted our national unity slate of candidates "Al-Iraqiya"--the Iraqi List, made up of a broad and representative set of respected individuals mirroring the rich geographical, ethnic and religious mix of the country. We see this mix in Iraq as a source of strength and talent, and not as a reason for factionalism and discrimination. Our goal is a united Iraq--safe, secure, and prosperous.

We are reaching out to all Iraqis in a spirit of national unity and reconciliation, and will continue to draw a clear distinction between criminals of the former regime and those who are innocent of such crimes but found it necessary to join the Baath Party to earn a living. All those who respect the rule of law will be respected by us and given the opportunity to live as productive citizens. Those who choose crime and terror will be defeated.

We will fight bias and factionalism in all its forms, and seek to include all ethnic and religious communities. We will aim to build strong and honest governmental institutions, and strive to stamp out corruption in all areas of Iraqi life. We will work to restore the rights of those who suffered under the previous regime, while enabling the progress of a free media and strong institutions for civil society.

We aim to continue the rebuilding of the Iraqi Army as a professional, apolitical, and meritocratic institution, as well as the responsible rebuilding of the police and other vital security services. We will also work towards orderly withdrawal of the multinational forces from Iraq according to a specific timetable--based on building sufficient capability in the Iraqi security forces.

Finally, and in tandem with our focus on security, we plan to focus on the rebuilding of Iraq's economy and infrastructure, so as to provide much-needed employment and decent public services. Iraq's oil wealth will be developed and used for the good of the people, and education, health care and a social safety net for the disadvantaged will all be among our top priorities.

The elections next month will be transparent and competitive, supervised across the country by the thousands of brave workers of the Independent Electoral Commission for Iraq, and by international organizations including the U.N. Iraqis will have over 250 different parties and political entities from which to choose--a far cry from the farcical referendum with Saddam as the single candidate who received 100% of the vote. They will be conducted in the open and under public scrutiny, and though these elections and the ones the year after will not by themselves create a democracy, they will be a major landmark event of huge significance. The resulting National Assembly will be one of the most important in our history--responsible for drafting our permanent constitution which will then be put to referendum for approval by the people. In addition, there will be voting for the 18 provincial councils and for the Kurdish Assembly, reflecting the important role of local government in the new democratic Iraq.


For all these reasons, it is not surprising that there has been robust debate about the timing and modalities for these elections. The debate is a positive sign that Iraqis take these elections extremely seriously and understand their significance for the future of our country and indeed the wider region. Just as we and the vast majority of Iraqis are determined that the elections will go forward on time however, there are those--a combination of terrorists and loyalists of the former regime--who will attempt to derail the process with barbaric and cowardly acts of violence, such as the recent horrific bombings in Najaf and Karbala and the brutal murders of brave Iraqi election officials. Though such attacks may escalate in the coming weeks as we approach the elections, they cannot and will not be allowed to achieve their destructive aims. As Iraqis, we will refuse to be divided and cowed into fear by such criminals. We will stand firm.

Ballots will prove far more powerful than bullets in the end, and the will of the peaceful majority of Iraqis will triumph over the terror tactics of a hateful few. To this mission, I and my colleagues from the Interim Government pledge ourselves, and we call upon the governments and citizens of our allies in the international community and our neighbors in the region to do their utmost to support Iraq at this critical juncture. A free and secure Iraq will be a victory for all peace-loving people, and we Iraqis face a historic opportunity that we shall not squander.


Dr. Allawi is prime minister of Iraq.

Copyright © 2004 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 07:36 pm
Hey, dlowan, great democracy in Iraq, heh? It's being dictated by the US administration. Nothing like having sovereignty controlled by another country. Sounds more like a colony or puppet regime - or both. LOL
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 07:48 pm
No kidding, c.i. Was just coming here to post and see I was beat by a hare.

Here's the Reuters report on the topic:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20041226/ts_nm/iraq_election_dc
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 07:50 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I prefer to rely on the opinions of these historians and professors of history at Harvard rather than your "personal" opinions about comparing Japan, Germany, and Iraq.
******************************************
Shocked Laughing Yeah, cause everyone knows if you want a truly impartial, unbiased "personal" opinion; you should ask a historian or professor from Harvard. Laughing
You're a card, C.I. :wink:
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 07:55 pm
I know, Bill. You don't gotta remind me of that!
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 08:33 pm
squinney wrote:
No kidding, c.i. Was just coming here to post and see I was beat by a hare.

Here's the Reuters report on the topic:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20041226/ts_nm/iraq_election_dc


Finally a bit of good news?
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 08:44 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I prefer to rely on the opinions of these historians and professors of history at Harvard rather than your "personal" opinions about comparing Japan, Germany, and Iraq.

... the Japanese had a tradition of democracy and civil society on which to draw.

...the German civil bureaucracy remained largely intact with a tradition of liberal, democratic government on which to build.

While it's true both Japan and Germany had a history, going back to the 18 hundreds, of having parliaments of sorts, they were in the case of both countries dissolvable at the will of the emperor and had their power severly limited at the will of their militaries. For a brief period, 1919-1933, Germany had a parliament that could not be dissolved by its emperor, there being no emperor during that period. However, in 1933, Hitler dissolved the German parliament. Not until after WWII did either country begin to have a real semblance of continuous democratic government.

To say that either of these histories constituted either "a tradition of democracy and civil society" or "a tradition of liberal democratic government" is quite a stretch. But if you insist they do, then let's look at pre-Saddam Iraqi tradition of liberal, democratic government. In 1921 a constitutional monarchy was set up. In 1958, the the constitutional monarchy governent was replaced by a constitutional military government that was subsequently overthrown in 1963 in another military coup. Saddam eventually rose to the top and ruled Iraq as a pseudo-democratic government. Well, if Japan's and Germany's histories include a tradition of democratic governance, then so does Iraq's history.

All three dabbled in democratic governance of one kind or another, so all three, Japan, Germany and Iraq, have similar democratic traditons. If that kind of democratic tradition is perceived as having been helpful to the formation of Japan's and Germany's democratic governments, then surely Iraq's similar tradition will be just as helpful to the formation of an Iraqi democratic government.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 08:48 pm
well I have been off to Tucson for the past few days and am delighted to see that this topic has advanced immeasurably---content zero----blather one hundred ( on a scale of one to ten)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 08:54 pm
You've missed some of the most important differences; Japan and Germany were toppled, and they didn't have the insurgency problems we have in Iraq (after major combat was declared over). Japan and Germany did not have tribal differences after the war as we do in Iraq.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 09:18 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
revel wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
revel wrote:
If we leave, maybe other nations will be more willing to help, but even if they are not and a big civil war happens that people keep talking about, it is still better for them to work it out themselves however it turns out than to be manipulated by the Bush administration.
So in your opinion, a straight massacre of several million Iraqis, that would serve only to enslave the remaining Iraqis in radical Islamic extremism is still better than to be manipulated by the Bush administration into some form of self-determination. Shocked And this after feigning concern that people are dying in the streets? Rolling Eyes


I believe that you are guilty of putting words into my post that I never typed.
Revel, if you don't think the Iraqis who desire democracy and self determination can win with our help; what do you think would happen if we abandoned them? (Answer: a straight massacre of several million Iraqis, that would serve only to enslave the remaining Iraqis in radical Islamic extremism)

revel wrote:
We had a civil war and it was horrible and lot of lives were lost and destroyed. Yet if we didn't then we might not have ended slavery. The point is that we did it because it was our country. The Iraqi's should be able to do with their country what they want to without us manipulating the outcome.
Should they? Should fiends like Saddam Hussein or the head-chopper Zarqawi, be allowed to murder people by the millions because it's their country? We had a Civil War because a percentage of our population was against evolving into a society that recognized the human rights of human beings. Today, there is war in Iraq because a small percentage of Iraq's citizens are fighting evolution into a society that recognizes the human rights of human beings.

Our war against Saddam is over. It has been for a while now. Any threat he may have posed is past. It is the would-be oppressors, who wish to replace him, who are causing the havoc there today. They are a strong minority of Iraqis, who use terrorist-like tactics to attempt to bully their own population as well as the United States and the World. That's it, Revel. A strong, determined minority of people who wish to prevent the majority from obtaining self-determination.

Now, you can bitch and moan all you want about whether or not we should or shouldn't have come. We did. We arrested the slave owner. Now, having done so, should we free the slaves? Or should we just let the next ruthless, murderous bastard bullwhip them back into submission?

revel wrote:
Btw-how can you manipulate a nation into a self determination?
Finally, an easy question. Kill every last bastard that would kill to prevent it. Those who are willing to die to prevent their compatriots from obtaining freedom must be crushed. They are the true enemy of the people, and I fully expect the poll results in January to reflect recognition of this FACT.


occum bill

I think much of what you think about the insurgency just being a minority is what is merely what is being said by our administration or by people who favor the administration and it is not really the reality in Iraq.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-12-22-mosul-analysis_x.htm

Quote:
"Band-Aids" that overlook the widespread hostility U.S. and allied forces face in Iraq.


"The idea that these are our allies, that's a lot of bunk. That's a really bad attitude," Lang said. "There has to be a much larger support group in the population which doesn't turn them in, which turns a blind eye, which cooperates with them."

In the months since the end of the invasion-phase of the Iraq war, Bush administration officials have linked surges in violence to a series of benchmarks after which, presumably, the attacks would abate. First it was the capture of Saddam Hussein, then the drafting of a constitution, then the establishment of an interim government and now the January elections.


As for the election solving anything, I doubt it and now even Rumsfeld does as the article shows.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Dec, 2004 09:34 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
You've missed some of the most important differences; Japan and Germany were toppled, and they didn't have the insurgency problems we have in Iraq (after major combat was declared over). Japan and Germany did not have tribal differences after the war as we do in Iraq.
I discussed the significance of these tribal or ethnic differences in an earlier post. I also mentioned in an earlier post that the insurgencies in Japan and Germany were, relative to Iraq's insurgencies, short lived.

However, I don't consider these to be the show-stopper differences I infer you do.

Here's a true, old story and relvant story. A school friend, a brilliant top-of-the-class aeronautical engineering graduate, told me this story about himself.

Right after he graduated he went to work for North American Aviation. His boss, the senior designer, asked him to spend the next year trying to redesign a particular empennage to cut its weight by at least 50% (for you living in the blue states an empennage is the tail assembly of an airplane's airframe). About seven months later my friend completed the design cutting the weight by 49%. He reported excitedly to his boss and announced his success. His boss mumbled, "thanks, now go back and reduce the design's weight another 10%."

My friend said he blew up. He shouted, "Do you realize what I hav accomplished? Do you realize my new design, while weighing less tan half as much, is twice as strong? Do you realize how much time, perseverance, creativity, and just plain hard work went into what I just accomplished in 7 months?" His boss responded, "Want an easy job ...... work for Piper!"

My friend said that he went back to work and reduced the design weight 11% more.

Moral of the story: You want an easier job than a democratic Iraq? Move to France!
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