THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

cicerone imposter wrote:

At least 'somebody' is doing something...

Blair in push for Mid-East peace

Tony Blair met Iraqi leaders on a surprise visit to Baghdad UK Prime Minister Tony Blair is to hold talks with senior Palestinians and Israelis on Wednesday, on the latest leg of a visit to the Middle East.
He and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon are likely to discuss Israel's planned withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, and a proposed Middle East conference.

Mr Blair will also meet the Palestinian leadership for talks on next month's presidential elections and reforms.

Meanwhile, Israeli troops raided a Gaza refugee camp blamed for mortar attacks.

Mr Blair's trip to Israel comes the day after his surprise visit to Iraqi leaders in Baghdad.

dubya wasn't there?

musta lost that pesky "roadmap"...

ican711nm wrote:

I thought everyone understood the obvious difference between al Qaeda located in a country whose government is working to remove and keep them out, and al Qaeda located in a country whose government is working to harbor them and bring them in.

Again, a wise person attempts to remove those governments that harbor and bring in al Qaeda. It is a realistic expectation that if one does that to enough such governments, few if any other governments will harbor and bring in al Qaeda. Perhaps the governments of Syria and Iran will also have to be removed before all of al Qaeda are finally under attack by the governments of every country.

but i did not name afghanistan or iraq, ican.

ican, it's not unwise to enforce the existing laws regarding border control. it is unwise to continue soft handling the borders in order to allow illegals to stream across the border to supply cheap and submissive labor.

we are !!!! since when ???

i can't believe that you, of all people here, think that enforcing the law is a waste of time.

"okay, you came here illegally, but if you just sign this piece of paper, work cheap and go stand in that line for 5 or 7 years, all sins are forgiven. you can be a citizen. even though you broke one of the most important laws of our country".

no, ican. a driver's license, healthcare and such don't even begin to hold the same value as american citizenship.
but that's just me being a liberal again...

who said anything about a wall, other than the israelis? there's a big difference between a wall and keeping a close eye on who's walking into your front (or back) yard.

But those who practice it nevertheless seem to have better houses, more to eat, a higher standard of living, less poverty, etc. than those who don't. So it's kind of a catch 22 isn't it?

"Al-Qaeda" has not been removed from Iraq as a result of our invasion thereof.

Unbridled capitalism sucks every bit as much as socialism...and arguably, a good deal more.

Not by Iraq, Ican. You are wrong. But I'm not going to argue with you, as you've convinced yourself you are right, so what's the point? Cycloptichorn

Frank Apisa wrote:

Unbridled capitalism sucks every bit as much as socialism...and arguably, a good deal more.

Yes, unbridled capitalism sucks. Unbridld anything, except perhaps unbridled love, sucks.

But who said anything about unbridled capitalism? I guess you had difficulty reading that small print of mine. I'll rectify that now by enlarging and emphasizing a word in it for all to see.

[siz=18]Promote the spread of real free enterprise capitalism in all countries (including ours) which currently limit people's honorable opportunities by virtue of their damnable socialism or worse isms.[/size]

Honorable capitalism! Now that is certainly bridled capitalism. And I like it! There are those of us who believe that the term dishonable capitalism is an oxymoron. That is, it ain't free enterprise capitalism unless it is honorable capitalism. Anything other than honorable capitalism just ain't true capitalism. For example, for capitalism to work people must tell the truth and keep their agreements. In other words, do what you say you are going to do by that time you say you are going to have it done. Now that sounds like a familiar implication of..... The Ten.... plus The Golden ... oh, never mind ... that's a really hard sell in some quarters ... .

By now I realize that any attempt to honorably debate you, Ican, is doomed to failure...so I am not even going to attempt that here.

What I said stands on its own merits...and need not be considered a response to what you wrote so that you can pretend you said something you obviously did not say in an attempt to refute my contention.

Unbridled capitalism sucks every bit as much as socialism...and arguably, a good deal more.

There is much some of the "isms" out there can learn from capitalism...and use it to improve their particular "ism"...but it is my opinion that there is even more capitalism can learn...and benefit...from them.

Allow me to add...that anyone suggesting that countries now experimenting with alternatives to capitalism be encouraged to suspend their experiments in favor of capitalism, is, in my opinion, asking people to substitute shyt for Shinola.

Why? Why of course! You might unconvince yourself that you are right and change your mind so you can actually be right!

Think about it! What would have been the true consequences of our removing the former Afghanistan government and not the Iraq government too? As bad as things currently are for Iraqis and Americans, do you really think things would be better for Iraqis and Americans if we hadn't invaded Iraq too? I don't!

Quote:

But those who practice it nevertheless seem to have better houses, more to eat, a higher standard of living, less poverty, etc. than those who don't. So it's kind of a catch 22 isn't it?

No, they don't. An extremely small number of people have what you describe. The rest struggle the same as people in other systems, just with slightly more stuff.

Cycloptichorn

Bush's War
by kos
Wed Dec 22nd, 2004 at 08:40:38 PST

So, who is to blame for all the deaths in Iraq? Let's mull this one over a bit, shall we?
Bush claims Saddam is a threat. Bush claims Saddam has WMDs. Bush claims Saddam has ties to Al Qaida. Bush and his administration promote questionable intelligence that supports their preconceptions and prejudices, and reject that which counters it.

Bush puts Rummy in charge of the war. Rummy fires general who says "we need more troops". Rummy says we can do more with less. Rummy says "lighter is better than armored". Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld say we'll be met with flower petals. They say the war will be entirely paid for by oil revenues. They say the reconstruction will be paid for entirely by oil revenues.

Bush says he's giving diplomacy a chance, but he's giving the world a middle finger. Powell says he's showing the Security Council evidence of Saddam's duplicity, but he shows them pictures of warehouses. Bush claims a coalition of the willing, that's really a coalition of the billing -- a mish-mash of third-world nations with token contributions. Only England offers tangible support.

Bush sends the troops into battle, claiming he had no choice. But Saddam had caved on every Bush demand (inspectors were allowed back in, his long-range missiles were being destroyed).

No WMDs are found. No ties with Al Qaida are found. No military capable of threatening Iraq's neighbors is found. Saddam's army collapses quickly and the country's defenders retreat into "insurgency" mode.

Bush declares mission accomplished. Bush taunts the insurgency. The insurgency kills our men and women. The commanders on the ground scream for more troops. They scream for armor. They scream for protected mess halls. Those screams fall on deaf ears.

More soldiers are killed. 1,320 Americans, 74 Britons, seven Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 19 Italians, one Latvian, 16 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and nine Ukrainians. The wounded number in the five figures.

Nevermind the innocent Iraqis who have been "liberated" to death. And while we scream about Saddam's torture chambers, we create new ones of our own.

So thousands die, for a war built on false justifications, managed poorly, with underequipped, undermanned, and under-armored forces. And to add insult to injury, we've had to pay for this mess, to the tune of $200 billion.

So who sent our troops into Iraq on false pretenses? Who sent them in unarmored? Who refused to provide enough troops to stabilize the country effectively? Who taunted the Iraqi opposition with "bring 'em on"? Who approved the American-branded torture chambers? Who has rewarded the secretary of defense who has negligently ignored the armor shortage in Iraq?

And who keeps them there as they continue to die?

That gave me a smile to lighten us up a little during this violent bloody christmas in iraq.

hey, you getting snow where you are? we are all getting a white christmas with a bang where we are. i wonder why people want a white christmas since it means people will have trouble being with their folks during the holidays? i think we are even going to consider postphoning some of the christmas with extended family and that is a first.

Quote:

But those who practice it nevertheless seem to have better houses, more to eat, a higher standard of living, less poverty, etc. than those who don't. So it's kind of a catch 22 isn't it?

No, they don't. An extremely small number of people have what you describe. The rest struggle the same as people in other systems, just with slightly more stuff.

Cycloptichorn

Quote:

But those who practice it nevertheless seem to have better houses, more to eat, a higher standard of living, less poverty, etc. than those who don't. So it's kind of a catch 22 isn't it?

No, they don't. An extremely small number of people have what you describe. The rest struggle the same as people in other systems, just with slightly more stuff. Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

But those who practice it nevertheless seem to have better houses, more to eat, a higher standard of living, less poverty, etc. than those who don't. So it's kind of a catch 22 isn't it?

No, they don't. An extremely small number of people have what you describe. The rest struggle the same as people in other systems, just with slightly more stuff.

Cycloptichorn

I agree with you cylop, most people live on credit and week to week and in debt up to their eyeballs. It seems the more money they make the more they borrow and live on credit cards and unpaid bills. (in general, I know that there are responsible out there in the United States) Such a system might last forever, but if it don't and we will have a big crash then we will have an awful lot of people living povety who won't know how to handle it. At least that has been my observation paying attention to such things.

Why would such an observation make one a "blame american first always" person rather than someone who can look in the mirror and see their own faults as well as their strengths?